Are men generally less confident these days?

[Aggieisback1]

I have met a number of men since divorce 2 years ago. When I was last single in my 20s men all seemed to be full of confidence and not mind knock backs. Maybe it's because 25 years have passed but so so many of the men I've met recently are really quiet and lacking in confidence. I'm also surprised how many 40 & 50 sthg men have never been married. Ironically it is the divorced ones who seem the cockiest and the shy guys low on self esteem. Wonder of anyone else had noticed this?

[FritzDonovan]

If women find this a difficult balance to achieve, why are men supposed to find it any easier?
Generally because the women are doing the lion's share of the childcare and domestic duties. The women I know who have managed to remain in their career (because they and their partner have been able to juggle things between the pair of them) still want to progress and are ambitious. Although each and every one of these is no longer full time. And I can understand why someone who has taken on a job which is no longer in their chosen profession in order to fit it around the kids may not be as driven to progress in that post. Partly because the increased responsibility now interferes with the family arrangements, which was the reason they took that job in the first place.

[Changedname3456]

Yes, and I expect those women (that are ambitious) find it difficult to keep up with the hours, additional projects and extra responsibilities which forging a good career entails, on top of sharing the domestics.

Usually you're BOTH then getting hit at work. Outsource the childcare and domestics and then neither of you spend much time raising your children.

The point I was making is that both partners are expected to do equal shares of the housework now (and I have no issue with that - I've always done my share and then some) but somehow the expectation on the guy IME is that he'll do all that and STILL be expected to forge some kind of stellar career, be the main breadwinner, provide the two foreign holidays a year etc and that's very difficult to achieve.

There aren't many high-achieving men or women who haven't ultimately either followed a one breadwinner/one homemaker model (whichever sex does which) or massively outsourced the domestics - to the point where their kids feel they've not seen that parent for big chunks of their lives.

[corythatwas]

Changedname, if you are genuinely doing half the childcare- and that means not just half the nappies and the hovering, but half the remembering of friends' birthday and teachers' presents, half the noticing if dc are sickening for something, half the sitting up until the small hours to comfort a heartbroken teenager, half the rushing home from work to deal with a vomiting 3yo- then evidence suggests that you are probably not part of the majority.

Ime very few women actually expect their menfolk to do half of all the work that needs to be done, and even fewer get achieve it.

[FritzDonovan]

Agreed that you are probably a significantly small minority, Changed, although I would be happy to be proven wrong. I've the only real shared domestic work is the stuff that happens out of work hours, when both partners are at home anyway, like clearing up after dinner. I've yet to meet a man who keeps up with birthdays/ school organisation /kids new clothes/making sure hw is done/ fair shares on being woken by kids at night/kids sick days, etc without it being necessary to ask. As his job is still usually seen as more important.

[Oldrockman]

I think changed name is sort of on to something here, the women movement has rightly changed women's expectations from life. Women now do have choices they can compared to the 1950's have a good career if they want but they can be a stay at home mother also. Men have not gone through any similar form of change, they are still brought up being told they have to be a bread winner and they are a failure if they don't do this. The world has changed since then, many will not earn enough to achieve what is expected and in many cases the woman is far more capable of earning the better wage. Men need to have a change in what is expected of them and have the notion of their role loosened up a good bit. Simply men it seems are still brought up with the expectations placed on them in the 50's when the world has moved on significantly.

[Changedname3456]

I can hand on heart say I have always done at least half. That's including all the domestic stuff (hoovering, cooking, scrubbing loos, polishing, shopping), childcare (never missed a parent's evening, do homework, read with the kids, used to do nappies, bottles, teething runs in the car at midnight, take them to parties, organise friends to come over, buy cards and presents for parties they go to etc, about half the school pick up and drop offs) DIY, shoe fittings, clothes shopping (although eldest prefers to choose now) last minute school projects, holiday organisation, finances etc. That extends to my step kids these days. Add Pet walking / feeding / mess clearing / cage changing.

I earn twice what my partner does and work FT. I probably do a bit more than some of my friends, but most of the men I know do a considerable portion of all the above and hold down responsible / well paying jobs too. I wouldn't say I'm unusual in my immediate circle.

[FritzDonovan]

Can I ask what area of work you are in, Changed? I wonder how much of a difference this makes

[Changedname3456]

I've changed careers three times and my friends work in various different fields so I don't think that's the link, tbh.

Ironically, I dated one fairly old fashioned (in terms of domestic expectations) lady and she never got comfortable with me doing housework. She'd been married to a complete chauvinistic, bullying cnut though, so I think what she'd grown up with was then reinforced by him, and she couldn't, or didn't want, to change.

[Aggieisback1]

On a side note I do find it a bit sad how the narrative is all about competitive language between the sexes like girls beating boys in exams, women out earning men etc. I have to say I know plenty of women some single some attached who vocally criticise men who don't earn the bulk of a households wages, and have a sense of entitlement about this. There are also several men on my circle who have had some kind of collapse around 50 after decades of doing a high stress high earning job. They would probably relish the freedom to have some of the financial burden removed by a partner.

[Changedname3456]

I have to say I know plenty of women some single some attached who vocally criticise men who don't earn the bulk of a households wages, and have a sense of entitlement about this

You've met my exW then?

I earned more than she did (not a lot more, but a few K) but boy did she resent "having" to work because I wasn't pulling in enough in those days to run the household on one salary - or at least not to the standard of living she wanted.

I was always a bit amazed at her sense of entitlement, because it wasn't like she was swimming in money as a child. Quite the opposite. Nor did she see anything wrong in her desire not to work, or not to work long hours in a stressful career, whilst not seeing why I'd have quite liked those options too.

[ordinaryman]

Changedname3456 Wed 07-Jun-17 09:30:29

From personal experience, I've found that some of the "confusion" stems from the willingness of some women (a few I'm friends with / some I've had relationships with, at least) to change the expectation set and flip flop between modern attitudes and more old fashioned ones - usually to suit themselves.

You're expected to be a hands on Dad, these days - happy with nappies, bathing, bottle feeding past midnight, car runs late at night during teething, school runs, helping with homework etc. But you're also supposed to stay ambitious at work and get regular pay rises and promotions. If women find this a difficult balance to achieve, why are men supposed to find it any easier?

Then there're things like DIY and other stereotypically "male" responsibilities - a lot of women I've met, as friends as well as partners, somehow expect a "man" to be born with a screwdriver in one hand and a power drill in the other! Why?

Often happy to criticise, but not often as keen to give it a go themselves. And this is quite frequently when they don't have the corresponding talents that they're somehow supposed to know from the womb (cooking from scratch, domestic skills, maternal instinct etc) and no interest in improving these either.

I totally agree with this.

Expectations are that all the stereotypically women-centric jobs should be equally shared, yet the stereotypically male-centric jobs are still expected to be the sole responsibilty of the man.

I read the 'but are you really doing half?' comment and would ask that of women also...

My wife would never dream of changing a power socket, cementing a path, fixing the distribution box, going outside to read the meters, fixing floorboards in the loft, mending a ballcock, repairing her own car, putting-up cupboards, looking at the technical spec for a major new purchase, assembling furniture, adjusting her own bicycle chain, cleaning-out the guttering, jet washing the patio, setting-up the barbeque, cutting down tree branches, mending door locks, re-laying lino, bleeding a radiator, connecting-up all the TV and AV equipment, etc, etc....

Yet ANYTHING she has to do is fair game for me too. None of this requires the specific physical attributes of a man. And despite the innevitable exceptions to this, I suspect many relationships are the same. I was no more pre-programmed to do any of 'my' jobs than my wife was pre-programmed to clean, sew and cook. Yet it is deemed acceptable (indeed 'modern') for a woman to question or refuse these tasks, whilst actively demanding a man perform both his and hers.

Many men feel down-trodden, unappreciated and inadequate. Blamed by women for a good many things, including the sins of men decades gone, over which they had no control.

There have been all kinds of real and pseudo revolutions for the modern woman, yet nothing to revolutionise, celebrate or reflect the value of modern man. Indeed, many feminist advances have manifested (deliberately or otherwise) as an attack on and dominance over men, not simply the advancement to equal status for women.

So to answer the OP's question, yes, I think many men do lack confidence. Not in themselves, but in their relationships and persona with women. Once upon a time, it was women who (wrongly) were expected to be shrinking violets, seen and not heard, there to serve and obey. Now it seems it's the turn of man.

I expect little public sympathy for that view, but privately if not publicly, perhaps many women might reflect on whether that's really an advancement for women to become the oppressor.

[outabout]

My ( EX DW) was relatively happy making concrete, chainsawing and similar jobs and I was a SAHD looking after DD much of the time. It felt good at the time.
Love is: making the first batch of concrete before going to work, while I made the other batches for the rest of the day!
Things suddenly went 'pear shaped' and that was that.

[FritzDonovan]

Expectations are that all the stereotypically women-centric jobs should be equally shared, yet the stereotypically male-centric jobs are still expected to be the sole responsibilty of the man.
Well that's massive generalising. I've bled more radiators and filled car tyres more than dh. He doesn't do anything in the garden beyond mow the lawn occasionally, certainly didn't lay our pavers. I've done the majority of the decorating and did, and most of the setting up the flatpack furniture.

[FritzDonovan]

did=diy obviously

[emilybrontescorset]

From my experience, I think women make more of an effort with their appearance. So when a woman meets a similar aged man she may be more confident and disappointed with her date. This in turn might affect the man's confidence.
If younger men are more confident it could be down to how our society favours the young.
Look around at all the anti balding, greying, middle aged spread that exists all around us.
Youth is a virtue, showing signs of aging is not a positive thing.
This isn't my opinion btw, I'm pointing out all the negative vibes showing signs of getting g old attracts.
So a man who has gained weight, lost his hair etc etc is not, in the main, seen as desirable.
Now a woman on the other hand tends to work harder in order to look good.
Older women also are more experienced sexually and more Likely to know what they do and don't want.
I also think older women are ( and I'm speaking only on behalf of myself and friends) quite able to turn down men and refuse further dates and maybe this adversely affects men's confidence.

[emilybrontescorset]

As I've aged I'm far less concerned about upsetting someone's feelings. As a young woman I was conditioned to be polite to men, even if I was actually thinking sod off you tit.
Now I'm not bothered if I offend someone by telling them to fuck off if they are bothering me. I've also told my dds not to tolerate any behaviour which makes them feel uncomfortable.

[SeanSpicer]

OP Grayson Perry wrote a book recently about masculinity and the changes to men etc, you might find it interesting. I can't remember the title off the top of my head.

[Aggieisback1]

Emily I tend to agree but obviously not all the differences between mens and womens appearance are down to how hard you work on it. Perhaps weight is the only one both sexes can work on, even then some people are predisposed to gain weight. Guardian journalist Rhiannon Coslett recently wrote that unlike for women, if you are an unattractive man there is nowhere to hide. I do think 40 plus men could do with dressing better and oral hygiene/skincare though..

[FritzDonovan]

Perhaps weight is the only one both sexes can work on, even then some people are predisposed to gain weight.
And even that isn't equal for both sexes given the role hormones and muscle mass play in the ability to lose weight...

[Girlywurly]

A really interesting thread. Much to think on...

I wonder if the lack of confidence that OP describes has something to do with men's reliance on women for emotional caretaking? (Susan Maushart discusses this in Wifework, as well as all the physical caretaking that women typically do...)

I know quite a few longterm single older women, and they all seem pretty happy and self-sufficient, with clean and comfortable homes, interesting holidays, great relationships with grown up children and grandkids, and of course lots of female friends who provide emotional sustenance.

In contrast, older men who are alone just seem, well, lost... Many of them live in unclean and uncomfortable accommodation, and they seem so lonely and unhappy. I guess this explains why so many men, in contrast to their ex-wives, are so keen to get into another relationship ASAP after a marriage fails. The prospect of old age without the support and companionship of a woman is pretty scary.

[Girlywurly]

Another thought... I was chatting recently with a male friend and he said that, for a man, 'a woman's opinion is the highest court', that there's nothing more important to men than the approval of women.

According to this logic, a single man who has not been able to attract a mate has failed in the fundamental test of his life...?

I think it's different for women because, for most of us, our most profound and meaningful connections are with our children.

Apologies for the stereotypes and generalisations, but maybe there's something in this?

[Aggieisback1]

I think you are right Girly. I agree mens self esteem is massively dependent on women's opinion of them. Because of male privilege and patriarchy this is something that isn't often discussed.

[Ellisandra]

I'm a woman in her 40s.
Some generalisations here...

Women in their 20s very often seem to pair off with slightly older men. Well - teens as well! I don't know why - cynically because they have more money, or genuinely because women mature younger? I don't know.

So when you're a man dating in your 20s, you're probably 27 and she's 22. You already got your first promotion, you've long since left home and know about renting a flat. You been places, done things. Just 5 years can make a huge difference - especially financially. So - you feel confident, you're naturally in the lead, the experienced one, the one where all else fails you've got the cash to buy presents and flowers. How often do we see women on here say "but he buys me nice things..." as a pathetic addition to a litany of crap?

Fast forward 20 years.
That 5 year age difference means a lot less. The 42 year old woman has experienced just as much "life". She may out earn the 47 year old man. She's hopefully outgrown any view that buying a bunch of flowers is particularly impressive. Much harder for a man to be confident where frankly, he has to work harder for it!

I hear those PPs re "blue jobs" though! It's ridiculous the number of my 40+ female peers who just expect men to wield the screwdrivers. My fiancé asked me the other day "do you have a drill?" Oh, his instant apologies at my face were great fun! Yes I've got a bloody drill!!!

[wherearemymarbles]

Or may be as women have become more confident and questioning they have realised that men arnt quite so confident after all (and probably never have been.)

The lad about town who trades on looks and charm wont have the same appeal once he is a balding beer bellied 50 something!

[oscareyeballs]

I suppose my confidence as a single guy is based on whether I meet a woman's expectations on a dating site. Having been raised in a strictly controlled, heavily religious household where we were physically and emotionally abused also hasn't helped.

But if you take that out of the equation, and look at a woman's profile on OKC or POF, she wants:

a knight in shining armour
a career/target driven guy who is doing well professionally
a chef in the kitchen
a keep fit fanatic who has a toned/swimmers body
an amazing lover in the bedroom
a handyman around the house
a sociable guy to impress her friends/family
an admirer of pets (who come before him just in case he had other ideas)
a world traveller who can accompany her on explorations
a cuddler when she's in the mood to curl up on the sofa with a glass of wine
and has his own house.

Who reads that and thinks they tick all the boxes, I certainly don't and therefore I'll just not put myself out there.

Although who wants to be messaged with:

I'm an average guy,
with an average body,
who has a job,
pay bills/mortgage,
has my own car,
goes to the gym 3 days of the week
likes housework
has never cheated
won't send you any dick pics
and is not lazy pig.

Shatters the dream somewhat eh?