My mother, who wants to 'help' all the time and doesn't understand why I'm not grateful, is driving me mad

[Pikawhoo]

My mother just came to stay for the weekend (so that she could go to an event last night, although we do usually see each other every second weekend anyway). It left me feeling really upset and angry at her. Sorry, this is long.

She is very judgemental and critical, sometimes with good reason (e.g. my house is a mess) but also just generally -- she was 'appalled' by the fact that I sometimes give DD (3) a cream cracker at breakfast. She is genuinely appalled by it because it is made with white flour (although actually it is the high fibre kind) it is 'processed' and because I should be offering fruit first. When I then bought rye crispbread instead, she said she had read something in the paper once about how rye crispbread is carcinogenic. Nothing, unless it's exactly how she would do it, is ever right.

In the night she couldn't sleep and she tidied up my kitchen (throwing away food from the fridge that she thought might be out of date, including several things that weren't) and tidied up a corner of the living room. The last time she did this I asked her not to do it again, because things went missing (including the veg peeler which I've never seen again! and it's a tiny kitchen!) but she went ahead anyway. When I was upset she was outraged and said that I should be grateful.

She was also upset that I hadn't taken DD to the walk-in centre for a rash of her bottom so we went and did that. And she said she thought it had been neglectful of me not to take her sooner, almost abuse. I was genuinely grateful to her for driving us although I thought it was unnecessary as the rash was already clearing up (and GP didn't seem fussed, and neither had the nursery).

And then DD's shoes were 'far too big' and she thought it was 'abusive' of me to let her wear them (they are meant to be her size but do in fact look as if they are a half size too big, but she says they are comfortable).

Finally, apparently I hadn't made an effort to tidy the house (true) and I smelled (unlikely to be true unless she meant 'of shower gel'). Also I am so fat that it is unhealthy and I will die young and I need to get checked for diabetes (it's true, I am overweight, but the relentless nagging and criticism, 'you get fatter and fatter!', 'I'll have to sneak in in the night and measure round your arms!' feels desperately unhelpful.)

'I thought you were a G-O-O-D mother, but...' (she spelled it out because my daughter was there).

I just don't know how to tackle her behaviour. It's awfully negative and the older I get, the more I think it is quite damaging to my self-esteem. I also don't like her criticising my parenting choices in front of my daughter -- I've told her often to by all means say things privately but try not to say them in front of DD, but it still happens.

Today she insisted on cooking dinner (which I told her I didn't want) and cleaning up despite my saying that I would do it, until I finally snapped and said I really would prefer to do it myself and that she should drive home instead. DD said very sweetly, 'Because you are angry, Grandma' and she proceeded to go on a diatribe about how in fact I was the one who was angry at her, and she was just doing all sorts of kind things to help.

The trouble is that this 'help' is so unhelpful. She thinks that the fact she means well should mean I am grateful to her but actually all I can hear is the relentless barrage of criticism of what I do or say or how I am. She rarely 'helps' in any way that I would actually find helpful, like being with DD while I have time to go swimming or anything that would make a practical help with my weight loss.

What can I do? Should I shut up and put up? Is there any way of tackling the unwanted 'helpful' advice, especially? Out of everything above it was the thing about cream crackers that really really really did my head in.

Pika,

Your mother has made the relationship that way by her actions, not you. You have simply reacted as anyone else would have done to her control i.e. rail against it.

You cannot sort this out, how do you propose to do that anyway?. She does not want to sort this out and does not get your understandable upset at all. Instead she herself goes mad and starts on at you. She wants her own way over you and your child. She wants power and control. Your mother is and will not be the nice mother you perhaps still so want her to be. Its not your fault she is like this, it really is not. You are not responsible for her being the ways she is.

Re your comment:-

"I do have friends but since we've had families they have other priorities (as do I) and it's just not the same. It does also feel as if being a single parent means I can't join in with their activities as easily; I can tell it makes them feel a bit awkward and I can't afford to split the cost of a cottage etc and go on holiday together".

You do not have to go on holiday with these people at all, you can still meet up with them on a social basis. Not many people generally speaking do go away with friends as it can break relationships and be a social minefield. I think as well that you really do need to widen your own social circle a bit more, is there for instance Gingerbread in your area?. Have you enquired as to what goes on at the community centre?.

You also seem to be dependent on your mother (primarily her doing) and I think she is responsible for making you feel like that as well. She is not helping you at all, she creates more work and makes you feel bad in the process. Emotionally healthy people do not act as your mother does, what sort of mother says that she is going to measure her own DDs arms?. No-one emotionally healthy says that to their now adult child.

I think your brother went abroad also to escape her toxic influence.

It probably was a so called "healthier" relationship before simply because you and she did not meet each other that often. She was busy looking after your late stepfather and had less time.

There is not a chance in hell I'd let someone in my home who continually spoke to me like shit, mother or not. Tell her why her comments are innapropriate and tell her to leave. Or be brave, and have it out with her properly before letting her past your doorstep ever again.

Is there a grain of truth in what she has said?

Oops, not sure how I posted twice.

Attila, I really struggle to see her as a toxic parent (and I know a number). I don't think she has a personality disorder, and I think she is capable of learning how her behaviour affects others and making changes. I do know she can be a difficult parent though!

A lot of things in our relationship are really enjoyable -- I always saw her and DSF at least once a week when we lived locally, and even went back there to live with them a couple of times as an adult for a few months at a time.

If I had to pinpoint the times when our relationship has fallen badly off track, I would say they coincide with periods of instability and difficulty in her own life. In the middle, through the whole of her 17-year marriage to DSF, we had a much healthier relationship.

Ideally we'd continue seeing her every second weekend if she can sort this out. I don't think I really want to see a therapist to talk about her (although potentially actually this might be valuable as I am trying to start to address my attitude to health and weightloss); I just want her to change her behaviour!

I know how to go NC with somebody, and it reminds me of breaking up with a partner. I don't want to do that. What I don't know is how we can fix things without getting to that stage.

So you've pinpointed that her behaviour is worse at stressful times in her life and she's still recently bereaved. Maybe she needs to know that she's projecting her hurt on to you. Maybe she doesn't realise.

Attila re the holidays, I am just trying to explain why I value having my mum's company. My social circle is lovely in its way but it's really hard to substitute friendships for family and close relationships (and I don't think most people do this).

Dangly you're right, and I definitely won't have her here again until things are better.

bibbity, yes, there is way more than a grain of truth in both what she says about me and what she says about my DB. I am definitely too fat, he is a bit too slim. I am messy, he is a workaholic (and messy actually!). I have a somewhat laissez faire approach to parenthood. And DB definitely has dated some people who've behaved stunningly badly to him.

That is partly what makes it so hard to address. Because, you know, in some ways she has a point. She's just making almost all her points terribly badly, in a judgemental and critical and totally off-putting way, when supporting us in more subtle ways might actually be genuinely helpful.

Also, some of it is just down to different people having different preferences. Like, I don't mind my DD eating cream crackers or the occasional biscuit, but some people do. And I'm really really anti sugary drinks (including juice) but I know that not everyone thinks that same way as me. But for DM, any deviance from what she has decided is best (organic food, wholewheat, no pudding, taking children to the doctor at the slightest sniffle) is just... WRONG. Whereas I think that, within reasonable limits, people are just different and can and should decide what is right for them.

The mess thing is funny because DM's house is a mess too, she just doesn't see it because it's 'her' mess!

I would suggest you get a book on assertiveness and really put into practice the ideas there. You need to be able to run your home and life as you want it and your Mum needs to recognise that as an adult your life decisions are yours and not for her to override. The food thing worries me she should respect your home as yours not ignore your requests.
The broken record response may help if there is some reasonable thinking somewhere in your mum's head.
Get food out of the waste and tell her not to do the things she does that are undermining your decisions. If you do not want to take your LO to the doctor dont. Yes she will lead off and get upset but that is the price you need to pay to take back your home and life.
Her upset is hers and it is not for you to do everything she wants when she says jump. Good Luck with this and I hope you can convince her to start treating you as an adult with your own ideas.

I think you've already made the best decision - to see her at her house. her house, her rules - she can run things roughly the way she likes, you can relax or go out to do some exercise, or whatever - everybody's happy.

If she comes to you, go out, with her, straight away and for all day. Do you have a spare room, is that how she stays with you? I would strongly consider renting it out :)

In the meantime, try for a routine 'Oh what nonsense [laugh]' and change the subject response. Just refuse to take any of it seriously. Could you 'jokingly' put a padlock on her bedroom door the kitchen door when you go to bed 'so that you don't do one of your mad old bat routines tonight mum and chuck out all the good food'? Could you recall happily how the best time of your childhood was the time you were taken out by someone and given a Walls vanilla sandwich and Findus crispy pizza? Just fight back a bit, without cutting her out of your life.

My DM does some of these things and she's definitely not abusive, just very annoying. She believes that I'm a mixture of immature and inexperienced, which couldn't be further from the truth as I've always been independent, both personally and financially. However, I'm the youngest of two and hold very different views to hers on almost everything, which automatically makes me wrong no matter what, and requires her telling me so because she cares.

It may be something silly like my choice of fabric for my curtains (hideous, apparently, but no longer after I ignored her, as usual, and they were hung in my new flat) or something really offensive such as calling me an irresponsible mother for not taking my DD to see a doctor for a clearly benign cold. And don't get her started on me telling her that colds are viral and cannot be cured by antibiotics, baby or no baby, because that's just nonsense and proof of my know-it-all/careless attitude.

On the other hand, she was a lovely mum when I was young and she truly believes what she says. She sew those "hideous" curtains for me, in spite of her disapproval, and once they were ready she even admitted that they were quite ok, just not her style. So I put up with it all and try to keep the nonsense to a minimum, because she's my mum and I actually do love her. But I never listen to a word she says, sadly, nor do I seek her advice.

What I mean to say is that there's a continuum from mildly annoying to deeply abusive, and only the OP knows where their relationship stands. If it's doing more harm than good, then by all means cut the cord, if not, put some clear boundaries in place and breathe deep after each visit. Blood doesn't guarantee that the other person will always have your best interest at heart, so you have to decide for yourself what works and what doesn't.

Pika

re your comments in quote marks:-
"I just want her to change her behaviour!"

That simply won't happen. Its difficult enough for a person to change even one aspect of their own behaviour; wanting someone else to do that is an impossibility.

"If I had to pinpoint the times when our relationship has fallen badly off track, I would say they coincide with periods of instability and difficulty in her own life. In the middle, through the whole of her 17-year marriage to DSF, we had a much healthier relationship".

What is a "healthy relationship with your mother" to your mind?.

How often did you see her during that time for a short visit or longer stay?. Were you a parent?. Also she had your DSF to look after (women like your mother also need a willing enabler to help them) so the pressure was taken off you. It is often the case that it is only when adult children of toxic people become parents themselves do they realise that their parents were not ideal at all.

You struggle to see her as a toxic parent because generally speaking no-one wants to think their parent (one of the people who is supposed to love their child unconditionally) is absolutely awful and even worse is actively trying to undermine them at every turn. Also you have grown up with her and thus see her behaviours towards you as "normal" to some extent.

I am certain as well that if you went into your house and did the things she did in your home, she would not stand for it and tell you to leave. It has never been ok for her to try and overrule you and run your home in the ways she wants it done. She is actively undermining you at every turn and this will also go onto affect your DD as well.

"I know how to go NC with somebody, and it reminds me of breaking up with a partner. I don't want to do that. What I don't know is how we can fix things without getting to that stage".

You are writing about two very different things. Going NC is rarely if ever done without much soul searching and heartache beforehand. What I would argue its already at that stage and relations between you and she will remain poor unless you decide to say ok and completely cave into what she wants. She will then be "happy" but you won't be.

You seem very hung up on wanting to fix things which made me think that you are getting caught up in the sunken costs fallacy. What about her own responsibility for wanting to fix things, I have not seen any evidence of her wanting to make things better for you. It takes two to make a relationship work.

Ugh, this sounds like my MIL - who I am thankfully now NC with.

Don't let this negative mood hoover drag you down!

Thanks feline, you are right, I really need some kind of strategy and the assertiveness stuff might help (I am quite assertive but maybe need to communicate in a more structured way like you would with a child so she understands exactly what stage things are at and what the consequences will be). If that doesn't sound too awful?!!

annandale, the Walls ice cream and the Findus crispy pizza! I am crying with laughter! I think you are also right about not taking it too seriously and maintaining my sense of humour. She is fine about not coming to our house so I don't have to rent out my sofa bed after all!

Andromache, I really relate to what you say and feel similarly. There are things I really hate about my mum's behaviour (which I've obviously pulled out on their own and complained about in my post here!) but I really don't think she is abusive.

Attila, thanks, this is food for thought. I do believe that people can change their behaviour but I know it is hard and that the motivation has to come from within them. I think I'd probably feel that a healthy relationship with my mum was largely similar but without her critical comments. I don't even mind hearing her point of view, but I'd like her to accept that it's not the only right way, and I'd like her to do it in a less negative and critical way. That's been pretty much how it was when DSF was alive, partly because she was happier and less negative generally (including about herself) and partly because DSF had a wonderful character, very strong but calm and reassuring, and wouldn't hesitate to say his piece or point out to her when she was being unreasonable (or to me, if I was!). I miss him! So, things were generally pretty good, and we could 'agree to disagree' where we held different opinions, and she was more respectful of me and more positive generally. This was both when I was single and when I was in a relationship, before I had kids and when I did have DD, and when I lived with them or elsewhere. So I do think it's possible but maybe there's also something there about her life getting back to a better place.

It sounds like your late DSF was her buffer and could stop her excesses of behaviour. I think these characteristics of hers have always been there though, he simply tempered them. It does not change the fact that she has and dose try to undermine your own parenting skills and treats you like you are not capable.

Re your comment:-
"I am quite assertive but maybe need to communicate in a more structured way like you would with a child so she understands exactly what stage things are at and what the consequences will be".

You could certainly try that but I do not think it will do you any good ultimately. People like your mother do not take kindly to boundaries and I think she could well ignore any boundary you care to set her. The other problem is that your mother is an adult herself and you really should not have to take on any sort of mantle of being a parent to her. Thirdly you would not have tolerated any of this from a friend, your mother is no different.

Hi Attila, it's definitely at a point which is not ok with me, and if it continues then we will lose many of the really nice and sustaining elements of the relationship (which she appreciates as much as I do) as well as the unpleasant ones. So, that's a pretty good incentive for change.

I guess I will just have to try it and see what happens. I'm still really open to suggestions of how, but I don't want to give up on my mum and it feels very different from walking away from a friendship.

DSF was great. He was amazing with people, I wish I had half of his natural EQ. He would always look for the best in people, without tolerating any crap (a very rare balancing act, I think). And somehow always managing things both firmly and kindly.

I just wanted to revisit this thread, which I started around four months ago. My mum is still behaving like this, although it's been a lot better since she was referred for bereavement counselling.

I have started a postgraduate course in the evenings and she has been coming to help with babysitting each week, which I've really appreciated.

When she says or does things that upset me, I have been explaining that while she may mean to help I don't actually find her actions/words helpful.

But OH MY GOODNESS I think I will scream if she comments one more time on the things in my kitchen cupboards that have white flour in them! Does she not realise that most people do eat these things?? Every time she says it like she's discovered something really outrageous that I probably just haven't noticed and need to be alerted to, and I'm like, 'no, mother, I meant to buy cream crackers, DD snacks on them sometimes, DON'T DIE OF OUTRAGE!'

Pikawoo I am so glad you restarted this post my mother is exactly the same and it drives me mad. She is completely obsessed with what is in food and now, also products. She constantly tells me about all the 'nasties' that are in bubble bath/shower gel and buys my dd (who is 6 months old) bath stuff which costs about 20 pound and then doesn't understand why we don't buy it for her too- she sees it as 'saving' her. It's absolutely bonkers. She doesn't have a tv and thinks watching it will cause lasting problems. Beginning the weaning process was a complete nightmare..

She judges a lot of things we've done too from our daughters name (massive crying breakdown in hospital) to the car seat we have and clothes we have.

Weirdly my mother in law is also similar but that's a whole different story.... I'm sure my mum has an undiagnosed anxiety disorder but although she says she's anxious she never says it's a problem (it is. For example If you don't reply to texts within 5 minutes cue a barrage of messages to me and my husband and brother asking what's happened)

Before I had my daughter I just put up with it but now I'm becoming more assertive and to be more confident in my decision. The first time I stood up to her was about my daughters name and I've tried to just stay calm and repeat what I've said. It's hard but we're getting there I hope you do too!

Pika I think what you need to do is actively start enforcing some boundaries. On the white flour thing for instance, maybe that looks like saying, "Mother, I have told you repeatedly that I am happy with my diet and food purchasing. I don't want to hear about it from you any more. The next time you raise it, I will end the conversation".

Then when she raises it, you end the conversation - whether that's by hanging up the phone, walking out of the room, telling her you think it's time for her to go, whatever. But basically, you tell her that if she does or says X you will end the conversation, and then you train her by action that you mean what you say.

This does work. It can feel very uncomfortable and lead to considerable huffing and flouncing, but in time you can generally teach people that if they want to talk to you they have to toe your lines of minimum acceptable behaviour.

The other option is to smilingly broken-record her until she gives up. All you ever say is "The food I buy isn't up for discussion", or whatever one-sentence answer you choose.

[comment on white flour]
"The food I buy isn't up for discussion, Mum."
[more Shock! and Horror!}
"Like I said, the food I buy isn't up for discussion, Mum."
[well she never, she is only helping, etc]
"Like I said, the food I buy isn't up for discussion, Mum. Why don't we talk about [that thing she likes], instead?"

Good luck.

Stop her in her tracks when she starts to criticise. "Stop, this isn't helpful, I am not an abusive parent".
"I didn't ask you over to clean my fridge out, let's take dd to the park instead"
Ext time she says she's only trying to help, let her know that she isn't helping you at all, what she is actually doing is undermining you and your choices and that you are incredibly hurt by her implying that you are abusing your daughter. That her comments about your home not being clean enough and her personal comments about your appearance and weight are in fact abusive to you.

snow123, are we sisters?!

Thank you for the advice, everyone. It sounds kind of like a more structured version of what I've been doing naturally. Will see how we get on (she's coming again at the weekend).

Sounds like it! I think my problem is when she's nice I feel like I've been mean but then she goes and says something and I just feel frustrated/upset again! I really think being assertive is the way to go. But not in an unsure way as it's construed as an argument. Before I used to ask for reassurance on everything and I've realised this has contributed to it a lot because now she gets worked up if I go against what she advises (despite the fact I no longer ask for reassurance) I think the key is learning some phrases and saying them over and over again assertively until it gets through! My mother can never be wrong so arguing/discussing is a no go!