Can you be in a relationship you think is great but is actually abusive?

[evanescence]

My counsellor told me today she felt my ex was abusive, my captor in fact.

I never saw him that way - I saw him as my best friend, partner and the most loving partner I could think of so what she said has be caught off a bit.

Is it possible I was being abused and still thought our relationship was wonderful?

Basically he was a very loving partner, affectionate, always talked about everything, kind to me, shared chores, looked after me, never said bad words to me once and treated me in a way that made me feel extremely loved. All my friends and family liked him very much and thought we were so happily settled until he left me which suprised everyone. Especially me.

The convo with the counsellor today was bringing up some things that niggled at me as I have been quite broken since he left me. The reason he gave for leaving me was basically that he didn't love me anymore because I wasn't the girl he first met. I'd had some depression and gotten a bit down (nothing bad or just a bit down)

I got ill because I was very isolated in our life together. I had to move overseas to be with him and left behind everything. We had young children (some his some mine) and I found it hard to adjust.

Basically he didn't include me at all in his life once I moved and nothing was as he'd promised.

He was very loving to me, and when we were together it was fantastic but he was away quite a lot and quite selfish really.

He went to work, I was a SAHM for the first time ever. I had no friends locally, but he never invited them over. We had my children all the time, and his children every weekend and he would never get a babysitter (he said it made him feel guilty to have his children and get a babysitter) so we never went out. We never had a weekend off from his kids so I think in the four years we lived together I went out probably 3 times and he invited his friends over once.

He had quite an active life...sports clubs, social activities with his old friends and even weekends away with his mates occassionally but because these groups were mutual with his ex wife I was never included as he felt it was arkward and he did not want to cause problems with the kids Mum.

We lived in a very isolated place (I am a city girl so that was hard on me too) and while he said we could not afford a second car for me, he spent a lot of money on silly things that were less important.

He never expressly told me I could not go anywhere or do anything- in fact when he saw I was down and came home to me crying he would tell me to go and have fun and do whatever I wanted but but the lack of money, car and him being at home and the fact I didn't know anyone made it so difficult so I became a bit of a hermit.

He wasn't ever mean...in fact he always asked if I minded him going to things, but basically I loved him and wnated him to be happy so I said it was ok. Sometimes I asked him to change things or include me more and he'd cry and tell me that he really loved him and he'd die if I lieft him but that his kids had to come first.

He was always making me feel like I was asking him to choose me over his kids.....and I wasn't. I was asking him to treat me like his partner, which he didn't. I felt excluded from his life even though we were meant to be a family.

I never ended up with any sort of life, and I know I was largely responsible but I do feel like he made it really difficult and I am not that good with new people and I'm not sporty or into any hobbies and I get quite shy around people I don't know. In the end it just got me down.

I got fat, I got depressed and then he left me and told me it was all my fault because me being down had drained him and I had become a burden.

My counsellor says he was abusive and manipulative.

If that was true why did I feel so lucky and so loved? I'm very confused.

[evanescence]

Oh thanks Bertie...I love that song.

thanks again for letting me blather away. It's really helped a lot. I am a bit up and down but know the general direction is the right one and this week has felt like turning a big corner.

Thankyou!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[evanescence]

A friend sent me this about a year ago and it made me laugh!

[BertieBotts]

Hahaha! Oh god, I have to make DS his own youtube account! He keeps getting suggestions from the totally inappropriate things I watch!

[Smilingforth]

V funny!

[Twinklestein]

I'm interested that the ex dumped him because he was selfish. I don't think she thought she was married to a saint, or if she did initially, she saw through him eventually. It implies that, even with someone he claims to be scared of (and I believe him) he still did exactly what he wanted to the destruction of the marriage.

It would explain all the charity work trying to prove her wrong (all the while being incredibly selfish to you).

I'm thrilled with your post @ 00.02 last night, it really seems like the brainwashing is lifting and you're coming out of the fog into the sunlight.

The fact that he's been peculiar since you left indicates that you were not the cause of his issues, (whereas he really was the cause of yours and you felt better as soon as it was over) and it also implies he has a a lot of issues he hasn't dealt with.

[evanescence]

No, she thought he was a saint origionally like I did but they were together over 15 years and the last 5 their marriage was totally over and she was desperate to get out of it and very relieved. She said he was incredibly selfish financially (boys holidays but no money for family holidays) but that was all she was specific about other than saying it was like having another child. That said, like with me he never mistreated her, appeared to love her immensely and therefore she felt guilty / trapped. So obviously despite being in love with her, devastated the marriage was over, and really not wanting to break up his family he ended up divorced. All he kept telling me was that he had no idea why she stopped loving him. He genuinely seemed not to know.

What is definitely true is that despite the devastation and pain and how much i love and miss him I was definitely healthier without him and he fell apart without me. So that was very odd and should have been the other way around.

In both cases, and both split families, he is oblivious to why it ended or what caused the problem and feels he is blameless.

I do think he is that stupid.

[evanescence]

she also said she had to be respnsible for everything and being married to him was like having another child.

She treats him like a child.

He has to ask her permission for basically anything and everything....like birthday gifts for the kids.

I weirdly always thought this as evidence she was a controlling bitch, but maybe he liked being controlled!!!

Maybe he hated "taking care" of me when I was sick and needing him, an he would have preferred a tough ass woman pushing him around.

Maybe that makes weak people feel better.

[Garlick]

It can give weak people an excuse to be selfish. It seems the only difference between his first marriage and his second, is that she told him what not to do (and he did it anyway) while you told him to do what he wanted. Neither strategy worked, because he's that self-absorbed and will do what he wants with no regard for others' needs.

She's right, in one important respect, that he's like a child. All children are self-centred, lack empathy and theory of mind, and seek constant feedback. It's developmentally normal, but people with PDs are stuck at this stage and cannot escape.

[Garlick]

I wonder whether she controls DCs' presents because of past broken promises and inappropriate gestures? It might be interesting to talk with her at some point.

[Twinklestein]

So she thought he was a saint to begin with but after 10 years she'd rumbled him and wanted out.

It's interesting that he was very selfish financially with her too - that's clearly his pattern... No doubt he bought endless expensive gadgets/kit with her too.

What strikes me is how clearly glad she was to be shot of him, how honest she was with you about his failings.

I'd be surprised in the circumstances if she'd be at all concerned if you were around socially. Perhaps keeping you out of his social circle was less about displeasing her and more his insecurity about you two discussing him.

I can see why she would want him to ask her permission for everything because he's immature and irresponsible. Her controlling his gifts to the boys may simply be to stop him buying expensive pointless presents when the money could be much better spent. He certainly needs someone to control his spending and clearly she was tough enough to take him on.

He does come across as a big kid manipulating to get his own way.

[Twinklestein]

I wonder whether she controls DCs' presents because of past broken promises and inappropriate gestures? It might be interesting to talk with her at some point.

Xpost, exactly.

[Twinklestein]

Children have a lot of power and no responsibility. He abused his power and behaved irresponsibly.

He comes across as an needy narcissistic, selfish teenager. A puppy who licks your face then pees on your shoe.

[trackrBird]

He did mistreat both of you, though: just not in overt, obvious ways.

He isolated and effectively trapped you on some snowy mountain peak (or similar). You were miles from family and support. When you confided your misery he shut you up with a few sweet words and no useful action. He ensured you had no money, no transport and no independence - that's abuse by itself. He couldn't even bring himself to use your proper name!

And although we don't know much about wife no 1, it seems that he used her parasitically so that she was obliged to take responsibility for both their lives. And he also financially abused her, leaving the family with insufficient money while he bought what he wanted.

He is one of the most messed up manipulators I've come across on these boards.

[evanescence]

No, he was never unreliable or innapropriate or broke promises. I never understood really why she controlled his every move and decision but to a degree I do think she's a naturally bossy alpha type of person (some people just are....my aunt loves telling people what to do)

On the other hand she was also very kind. When she went on holiday she would buy me and my kids little gifts and she was gracious and a sensible woman and I liked her.

She didn't want too much contact and while she was polite she'd rarely come into the house. I think she just appreciated being shot of him and that he was with someone who was kind to her children.

I was genuinely baffled over why she didn't want to be married to him but I'd preumed he found him too weak and was better suited to someone who stood up to her.

I know with absolute certainty that she would not have given a rats arse if I was with him socially. I also know for a fact that she did not want him at many of these occassions and she complained behind his back about why he felt the need to come and could he not accept they were divorced. She felt these events and clubs and groups were hers, and that once divorced he should move on and find a new life. I never told him that so as not to hurt his feelings.

I also know he'd not be worried about us discussing him because in his mind he was perfect and neither of us would have anything bad to say.

He has told me quite recently for example that he is in counselling following our split and that he and his counsellor feel he wore himself down over 20 years trying to please other people and that his depression is caused by extreme selfishness and what he needs now is to be selfish for once.

He actually believes this! And the counsellor is backing him 100%. Which hurt me VERY much obviously!

He would die of shock and horror if he knew both the women in his life thought he was the most selfish person they'd ever met. He definitely does not see himself this way and would never listen or believe it if he was told.

I think the reason he did not want me around socially was that he was worried about her brothers and sisters, his ex in laws or anyone else judging him that he had moved on and had a "new" family. I think he very much liked to pretend he was still married to her socially as a huge part of his identity was rolled up in being her husband. Her family were very prominent locally - the centre of everything in the town - and he hated that he was no longer at the Royal Table.

Honestly? I don't think he really loved her.

I mean, I think he thinks he did but he never really gave me anything positive about their marriage to go off. It seemed to me like he just resented her and felt controlled. The sex was crap.

I don't think anything at all about him is actually real.

[Garlick]

he was never unreliable or innapropriate or broke promises



Is this the same man who promised his fiancée and a baby but didn't come through?
Who changed plans because there was some high-profile event he wanted to be seen at?
Who bought a canoe instead of an appropriate car for you, or food?
Who gallivanted around behind his wife's back?
Who inappropriately inserts himself into his ex-in-laws' social circle?

[Garlick]

A puppy who licks your face then pees on your shoe. I'm nicking that!

[evanescence]

I did mean day to day, in overt ways he was very reliable. Mr Reliable.

Behind the scenes he wasn't of course.

[Twinklestein]

I don't think anything at all about him is actually real

He comes across as totally inauthentic and I think that's probably one of the causes of his depression.

I'd love to have seen his face if you'd told him his ex didn't want him at these functions, and the whole family just wanted him to move on.

He's obviously a very insecure person at bottom, and obviously liked and needed the status of his wife's family.

Just remember the counsellor can only go on what he tells them. We know what deluded spiel he will give so it's hardly surprising if the counsellor falls for it. I've had a friend who told their therapist what she wanted to believe herself, and it's a complete waste of money.

Until he learns to be honest with himself and his counsellor he cannot move forward. He's stuck in a quagmire of his own fictionalised version of the world.

[Viviennemary]

Sometimes you don't realise quite how bad a relationship is or how big your partners faults were till you leave. He does appear to have been selfish, inconsiderate and thoughtless at best. But remember anyone on MN and your therapist only has what you have said to go on.

[Twinklestein]

On the surface he was reliable, underneath he was totally unreliable, flaky even.

[Garlick]

Yes, and things like respecting his children's birthdays are behind the scenes, aren't they. Might he have forgotten them sometimes, 'had to' climb Everest for a charity photo-shoot instead of being at their party, made any celebrations all about him, then unexpectedly gifted them with expensive and unwanted gadgetry?

[evanescence]

No...he'd never forget a birthday! He hated being seen as bad remember?

I honestly think his worst nightmare would be to be seen as the bad guy. He used to get really, really disturbed if someone was angry at him. Like almost weird to watch it.

I feel likem Twinklestein you are describing him perfectly. He definitely would have told himself, everyone else and his counsellor a totally deluded version of everything.

He would have said he gave me everything, did anything for me and I was still unhappy, that he loved me with all his heart and leaving me was the hardest thing he ever had to do but he could not cope. they would have hugged him and comforted him and told him it was okay to be selfish!

I can picture it in my head and want to puke.

He absolutely refused me to attend one meeting with the counsellor by the way. I asked to.

[Twinklestein]

He seems quite fixated on his kids, his ex said he would spend money on holidays for them and there'd be none left for the family.

It sounds like he ran after the approval of his kids just as much as everyone else, probably buying ridiculously expensive useless things to buy their affection.

I can see why ex took complete financial control, so that she didn't end up with endless computer games and no car.

[evanescence]

I really have felt so much better for this thread the last couple of days.

It's all starting to make sense.

Excited to get back into the counsellor and crack on with this and feel hopeful for the first time since I can remember.

It's hard to feel positive about life experinces and grow from them or whatever when you've not relly got any idea what happenned and why.

It's all starting to really slot into place.

Who he really was. How me and his ex wife had the same shit in a diferrent package. How his mind works and why he did this. Why I let it go on, why I didn't properly see it, what I should have done and where I went wrong. When all that starts to become more clear you start to feel like you are more on top of it.

[Twinklestein]

I'm really glad to hear it OP.

It's ok not to see things, not to act on them. We all have things in life where we think in retrospect 'why the hell didn't I just...'

You had moved countries for him, you were trapped and isolated in a foreign with no support network to talk things through with. And that's probably partly why he did it - because it made you more dependent on him and less likely to leave. To register what was going on and take action would have been a momentous upheaval, so you had a vested interest in trying to make it work, and believing you were at fault.

Plus he was a master manipulator - I've got to hand it to him - one of the best I've seen.

It took his ex 5 years to get rid of him and she was in her home town with friends and family around her.