Can you be in a relationship you think is great but is actually abusive?

[evanescence]

My counsellor told me today she felt my ex was abusive, my captor in fact.

I never saw him that way - I saw him as my best friend, partner and the most loving partner I could think of so what she said has be caught off a bit.

Is it possible I was being abused and still thought our relationship was wonderful?

Basically he was a very loving partner, affectionate, always talked about everything, kind to me, shared chores, looked after me, never said bad words to me once and treated me in a way that made me feel extremely loved. All my friends and family liked him very much and thought we were so happily settled until he left me which suprised everyone. Especially me.

The convo with the counsellor today was bringing up some things that niggled at me as I have been quite broken since he left me. The reason he gave for leaving me was basically that he didn't love me anymore because I wasn't the girl he first met. I'd had some depression and gotten a bit down (nothing bad or just a bit down)

I got ill because I was very isolated in our life together. I had to move overseas to be with him and left behind everything. We had young children (some his some mine) and I found it hard to adjust.

Basically he didn't include me at all in his life once I moved and nothing was as he'd promised.

He was very loving to me, and when we were together it was fantastic but he was away quite a lot and quite selfish really.

He went to work, I was a SAHM for the first time ever. I had no friends locally, but he never invited them over. We had my children all the time, and his children every weekend and he would never get a babysitter (he said it made him feel guilty to have his children and get a babysitter) so we never went out. We never had a weekend off from his kids so I think in the four years we lived together I went out probably 3 times and he invited his friends over once.

He had quite an active life...sports clubs, social activities with his old friends and even weekends away with his mates occassionally but because these groups were mutual with his ex wife I was never included as he felt it was arkward and he did not want to cause problems with the kids Mum.

We lived in a very isolated place (I am a city girl so that was hard on me too) and while he said we could not afford a second car for me, he spent a lot of money on silly things that were less important.

He never expressly told me I could not go anywhere or do anything- in fact when he saw I was down and came home to me crying he would tell me to go and have fun and do whatever I wanted but but the lack of money, car and him being at home and the fact I didn't know anyone made it so difficult so I became a bit of a hermit.

He wasn't ever mean...in fact he always asked if I minded him going to things, but basically I loved him and wnated him to be happy so I said it was ok. Sometimes I asked him to change things or include me more and he'd cry and tell me that he really loved him and he'd die if I lieft him but that his kids had to come first.

He was always making me feel like I was asking him to choose me over his kids.....and I wasn't. I was asking him to treat me like his partner, which he didn't. I felt excluded from his life even though we were meant to be a family.

I never ended up with any sort of life, and I know I was largely responsible but I do feel like he made it really difficult and I am not that good with new people and I'm not sporty or into any hobbies and I get quite shy around people I don't know. In the end it just got me down.

I got fat, I got depressed and then he left me and told me it was all my fault because me being down had drained him and I had become a burden.

My counsellor says he was abusive and manipulative.

If that was true why did I feel so lucky and so loved? I'm very confused.

[evanescence]

thanks Garlick, I probably have to accept I will never know but going off the years and months and days I was there I don't think he got satisfaction from it. More that he didn't care. Or maybe more that he believed as much as I did that we had a good, happy life. I think he believed it himself, I do.

Not sure if it makes a diferrence. I am figuring that the important things for me to heal are really ging to be:

1. Realising how far from perfect my life/ relationship was and understanding I will love /be loved again and it will be better.
   

1. Realising he was not perfect, and I was not to blame
   

If I can get to those things then maybe I have a chance to get better and rejoin life properly instead of living this half a life with all the pain all the time.

He definitely has some of those PAPD characteristic lostalot but to be honest the bit of text I read since all this that most made me go "wow! this is him to a tee" is the book "Mr Nice Guy" about men who play Mr Perfect and because they don't know how to assert themselves they play roles, are never really honest, build resentment, lie a lot and manipulate.

He fits that to a tee and every word in that book sprang off the page to me.

I am trying to envisage a life where I'm loved by someone who gives me all the stuff he did, like kindness, listening, cuddles, sex, support, friendship etc etc but also makes my needs a priority along with his - that we make joint decisions on finances - that he spends more time with me - that he doesn't have an ex in the wings who is his priority.

When I envisage that it feels like a really nice thing to imagine and I am hoping I get that.

I am finding relationships very, very difficult right now. I push people away a lot. Friday night and I turned down the man I am seeing for a date and said I was working. Not because I don't like him -I do - I just feel so sad sometimes I want to be alone.

I just want to have another chance at a family life where it's not like it was before.

[Jux]

Actually, I think he knew exactly what he was doing.

"We have to save money", but he can spend whatever he likes.
"Why don't you go out for the evening?" But you have no car and nowhere to go.

Unless he was seriously thick, he knew exactly what was what.

"You can't come, ex-wife won't like it". Huh! like she's not counting her blessings that she's rid of him. No, he didn't want you and her comparing notes. Maybe worried that she, or one of his 'friends' would let something slip which would open your eyes.

Deliberate, deliberate, deliberate. Nasty nasty nasty little shit that he is.

[Twinklestein]

Of course he knew what he was doing.

We're not talking about unconcious or irrational acts, we are talking about clear intentional choices to exclude the OP from his friends and acitivities, to isolate her, to give her access to his money but to make sure there was never any there to spend, to never buy her a car.

These are all conscious choices. He may not have examined fully why he was doing it, but he was fully aware that he was doing it.

[evanescence]

He acts like he completely believed that I drained him and caused this.

Is it possible he actually believes that and doesn't see it was his actions (or lack of) that made me ill?

I know it seems like this is a silly question to ask and probably doesn't matter but one of the worst things for me has been him telling me it's my fault.

It just seemed really unfair I spent so long telling him I was lonely and needed certain things and then I got ill and he did nothing tangible to help me, then said "you being sick has drained me and worn me down, adios and it's all your fault".

[evanescence]

He doesn't seem to acknowledge that my life was bad or that it was anythign to do with him if it was.

His attitude really was that I was a free adult, free to go and make my own friends and he never stopped me doing anything.

[Twinklestein]

If he acknowledged what he did to you he'd have to face the fact that he's a really awful person. When he's spent years trying to convince himself and his ex that he's a good guy - by obsessive, excessive charity work.

He has a vested interest in the lies he's telling you and himself.

He does not want to admit that his isolation and mistreatment of you led to your illness.

He used your illness as an excuse to make out that you've failed him, so he can dump you and not feel bad.

[NorwichEventer]

"I realise it was a very subtle control mechanism of almost imperceptible disapproval and judgmentalism. In short, he created an environment where I policed myself, and he did this through discussing "life goals" and "objectives" with me (in a very modern fashion), goals that required we sacrifice certain aspects of our lives for a time -- say, that we wouldn't go on holiday or go out for dinner so we could save for a house deposit, or that we work in the evenings to advance our projects or business ideas."

That is an excellent, excellent summary of controlling men.

[evanescence]

So he tells himself what he wants to hear. That sounds about right. After all he refused to discuss it EVER. He just went, and said all this stuff to me and about me with no opportunity for me to have a say - I guess he didn't want me to have a say because it was easier to tell himself I was unlovable than to look at himself.

He thinks he was a wonderful guy, wonderful partner, wonderful man and that i was just too much to cope with. He really made me feel that way too and he has pretty much everyone around him or us believing it too.

He did make me feel like I'd failed him.

I feel quite sorry for him actually. He's so scared of being his real self I guess.

[cailindana]

My sister has a personality disorder of some kind. Obviously, having grown up with her, I know her well and I think, genuinely, she doesn't understand the impact she has on other people.

She is a funny, good looking, intelligent, gregarious woman. She has no trouble getting boyfriends. Men love her.

She can also only see what she wants. It's like a disability - she cannot see other people's wants, needs, emotions or intentions. She has entirely learned how to 'do' relationships from tv and books, so she does everything that they tell her to do - she goes on dates, she gives presents, she looks forward to getting married. But the truth is, there is no emotional connection between her and other people at all. It just doesn't exist. If people don't fulfil the purpose she feels they should, she jettisons them. Trying to explain this to her would be like trying to explain the difference between baby blue and sky blue to someone who's been blind all their life - they just won't get it.

She isn't evil or malicious. But she has hurt people, very, very badly.

If you try to engage with her as a normal person it's like slowly going mad. Nothing she says means anything, she will always only act according to what she wants at a given time. She will point out a way someone has wronged her and then literally do that exact thing a minute later and not get why that's hypocritical.

I now don't talk to her. You cannot engage with someone like her. It's sad, but it's the way it is.

It sounds like your ex is something very similar - does the right 'act' but it's all front and no substance. I can't say whether he knows what he's doing or not, but chances are he may be like my sister.

[cailindana]

As an example of something my sister did: she was going out with a guy when she was at uni. He was lovely, very kind and giving and utterly smitten with her. She said all the things he wanted to hear, spent time with him etc etc but then decided he was boring.

She then told me that she wanted to break up with him but she would wait until after Christmas to do it because she knew he was going to get her something great. She chose a specific date to dump him: January 24th.

She didn't tell me this with any maliciousness or glee. She just saw what she wanted and did it. I told her she was being incredibly mean and she didn't understand why.

Recently she wrote me a letter, trying to get me to re-establish a relationship with her, and she cited this incident as one of the 'funny' things we laughed about when younger. She sees it as funny, has no shame at all about it and doesn't remember my reaction at all. She can't see why mentioning something like that would make her look like a total bitch.

You cannot have a relationship with someone like this, they are entirely ruled by what they want and nothing they say means anything. They will say all manner of things, such as "I worship you," things that would never be said by other people, not because they're totally romantic and mad about you but because their words mean nothing.

[trackrBird]

I think some of them know what they are doing but believe it to be completely normal - that everyone puts on a fake front, no-one really feels anything for anyone, and that people just pretend to have feelings to get what they want. Some are just better at the game than others, in their view.

This is why some people will you accuse you of faking tears or emotions, or 'playing the victim' to get attention, when you are genuinely upset by something. It's because they routinely fake emotions themselves to get what they want, and believe that behaviour to be normal. (I noticed your ex was prone to weeping when he didn't get what he wanted.)

Trying to get through to them is pointless - as cailindana says. Some don't have enough insight to see that what they're doing is wrong. They genuinely think you are mad or wrong, having failed to act out the role they expected.

Others know what they're doing, and that it's wrong, but they don't care as long as they continue to get what they want.

[Garlick]

She can also only see what she wants. It's like a disability - she cannot see other people's wants, needs, emotions or intentions.

Yes, this exactly. The cluster B disorders must be the only disabilities that tend to increase one's chances of success in life - but that success is necessarily limited in scope by the condition itself.

Agreed, too, trackr, that the projection thing is more complicated than these discussions normally allow ... People with PDs don't, and cannot, know how it feels to have a full emotional range. Therefore they can only assume others' responses are like their own.

Evan, I rarely talk about my marriages outside this board and my support groups. For everyday life, I say "It turned out we only had one thing in common: we were both in love with him!" Sums it up adequately.

[evanescence]

Yes honestly I think he fits that more. He did not / could not see certain things, but when I pointed them out and explained he was sort of like, "oooohhh". It was a kind of stupidity, or something lacking but I don't believe he got any enjoyment from hurting me. More like a disability in realising what he was doing was hurting me.

Strangely now I think about it he told me he had no idea why his first wife left him, but she told me it was because he was selfish.

I think he sees himself in his mind as completely selfless....and in many ways he was. Always the first to get up at 5am for the baby. Always the first to drive 2 hours out of his way to save me getting a train in the cold. Always the first to wake up at 3am if I had a sore tummy and go and get me a hot water bottle. Always the first to give hugs, and cuddles, and kind words and rides to strangers.

So I actually saw him as selfless too. We both did. Everyone did.

But he was actually deeply selfish where it matterred, and because he was so selfless in every other area I never saw it. So I never told him.

I think he was blind to what he was doing to me. I think he thought he was loving me as much as he could and being everything I needed but when you lay it out on paper the absolute basics that a human being needs to be "happy" were not there in my life.

I sacrificed all of them, and he never stopped me.

When I realised how it was affecting me, he was not willing to change.

[Garlick]

There's a useful exercise you can do when suffering cognitive dissonance in a personal interaction. It identifies projections. Try switching their significant statements around, so 'you' becomes 'I/'me' and 'I' becomes 'you'. See if it illuminates anything. (Also works when the statements are about a third party.)

You haven't given direct quotes from him - and I don't know how much your ex projected in words - but here's a paraphrase you posted:
"okay I will do what you want, but if I do I will be sad and it is your fault"

Reverse projected: "You will do what I want, but if you do you will be sad and it is my fault."

I hope this is enough to show you how it can work.

[evanescence]

This would be a typical conversation:

Me: You signed up for something else? You're already hardly here.
Him: I know but I really felt it was the right thing to do to support
Me: I know, but it's going to be 2 nights a week extra away
Him: It'll be good for me to lose weight too though. I really want to get fit. If you really don't want me to do it honey I'l tel * that I can't.
Me: No, it's ok
Him: You sure? I really won't if you don't want me to do it.
Me: No, it's ok, whatever makes you happy.


Or


Him: There's a party on for x Mother in law and seeing as they were my in laws for 15 years I really feel I should go. would that make you uncomfortable honey?
Me: No, no, you go.
Him: Ok, and how about next weekend I book somewhere special for us to go with the kids?

(never any suggestion of me going too, but he'd then book some extravagant romantic trip)

Or


Me: I feel like I am losing myself, I was crying all day today and had panic attacks and couldn't leave the house.
Him: Aww honey, come here for a cuddle.
Me: I got this book on panic attacks and what causes them. Will you read it with me so you can understand?
Him: Sure, but you know the real problem is you just worry too much.

(then he'd instigate sex and the convo would be forgotten)


Or

Me: I have fucking had enough, I am alone ALL the time, you spend more time with your ex wife..I wish I'd never moved here, I am going home.
Him: Honey I know I haven't done the best for you but I am balancing what is best for my children with my love for you. You are my girl, my only one and I have no feelings for her at all beyond not wanting to piss her off and jeapordise my role as a father.
Me: It's not good enough
Him: Please honey, please give me me time, I will be stronger, I will do better I promise.

(then the tears would come, the begging on his knees, and if I continued being angry would become physically sick - vomiting, palpitations - and be unable to go to work)


Along those lines.

No, I was never forceful enough, but yes...he knew. He knew very clearly he was doing stuff that harmed me but he kind of made me feel like if I pushed him he'd have a mental collapse or something.

[evanescence]

then he said one day....you're sick....I don't love you anymore because you're sick. You being sick has worn me down and he told everyone he knew I was a nightmare to live with!

[BertieBotts]

I haven't read the Mr. Nice Guy book but you might want to look at Lundy Bancroft's abuser profiles. This is lifted straight from the book "Why Does He Do That" but Bancroft has given permission for it to be redistributed.

www.facebook.com/notes/becka-nan-amos/abuser-profiles-from-why-does-he-do-that-by-lundy-bancroft/480862655302912?pnref=story

[BertieBotts]

Oh sorry, just seen Garlick already posted the link Will catch up on thread, then post :)

[evanescence]

thanks Bertie...I did read that thread and he doesnt really fit!

Maybe sometimes someone isn't an abuser, but their behavior can be abusive. I guess it was abusive.

[Garlick]

It's great that you're now seeing how much he dismissed, belittled and excluded you! He really is a head-worker, isn't he

I don't love you anymore because you're sick is a ghastly thing to say! I'm sure you know this now. More than anything, it encapsulates a belief that love is only given to those providing cost-free benefits. I was about to say something about throwing away a car that's become too demanding but, tbh, most people I know would say "I still really love that car but it's sadly not worth keeping it on the road." When it comes to reluctantly ending a relationship due to the demands of illness, almost everyone would feel terrible about it and certainly not stop caring about the patient.

Of course he didn't really care about you, did he? Just acted it :(

I don't think the exchanges you've posted lend themselves to reverse projection, perhaps because they were very specifically intended to manipulate you into accepting unacceptable behaviour. Or perhaps everything he said was deliberately manipulative, I don't know.

I'm so pleased you've got a smart therapist - and more than pleased you're out of that now!

[evanescence]

Basically, the book "No More Mr Nice Guy" says that some men in childhood decide they have to be "nice" to be liked / loved or get what they want.

This fits my exactly. Even his Mother told me the Nice guy persona developed in adolescence.

Men like this then basically don't know how to set boundaries, ask for what they want, have a conflict, stand up to anyone or be assertive (very much my ex).

So what they do instead is get what they want by surreptitious means. Lying, manipulating, playing the victim, making you feel like it was your idea.

His description to me of his first marriage was that she was much tougher than me; very much wore the trousers and he was scared of her. I believe that. He is still scared of her. So if he wanted something she did not agree to (a boys weekend away, smoking a joint, sex) he would just go elsewhere and take it. All the while she thought she was married to a saint and in reality he did bad things and lied.

When he and I got together, I ws obviously not a bossy or controlling sort of a person and beause he was gentle I always just "let" him do whatever he wanted. If what he wanted was damaging to me, I'd tell him not to do it. Nine times out of ten he'd do as I asked but with the big things he would mnipulate his own way.

The book says men like this are not living authntically because they live for approval of everyone around them.

I don't think he even knows how to have a conflict and resolve it. All he knows how to do is cry and say sorry and beg. He never really argued back.

I did see all this in him, and hence never really pushed him. I thought he loved me and needed me and I had to make allowances for how weak he was. It never occured to me that doing that would change me, make me less "fun" or less what he wanted and that he would leave me.

He's actually been a mess since he left. He never ended up with anyone else and became a bit of a hermit weirdo. Everyone comments to me that he's aged 15 years and looks awful.

I think he's got some issues.

I just always saw him as a victim and I suppose the purpose of the thread was to start seeing more clearly that some of his behavior was harmful to me, and that he played a role in breaking me down.

I just loved him so much it's been so hard to see that. I always want to make excuses for him.

[Garlick]

Evan, are you sure this isn't relevant?

.......................................

The following dynamics are typical of a relationship with Mr. Sensitive and may help explain your feeling that something has gone awry:

1. You seem to be hurting his feelings constantly, though you aren't sure why, and he expects your attention to be focused endlessly on his emotional injuries. If you are in a bad mood one day and say something unfair or insensitive, it won't be enough for you to give him a sincere apology and accept responsibility. He'll go on and on about it, expecting you to grovel as if you had treated him with profound cruelty. (Notice the twist here: This is just what an abuser accuses his partner of doing to him, when all she is really looking for is a heartfelt I'm sorry.)
   

1. When your feelings are hurt, on the other hand, he will insist on brushing over it quickly. He may give you a stream of pop-psychology language (Just let the feelings go through you, don't hold on to them so much, or It's all in the attitude you take toward life, or No one can hurt you unless you let them) to substitute for genuine support for your feelings, especially if you are upset about something he did. None of these philosophies applies when you upset him, however.
   

1. With the passing of time, he increasingly casts the blame on to you for anything he is dissatisfied with in his own life; your burden of guilt keeps growing.
   

The central attitudes driving Mr. Sensitive are:

• I'm against the macho men, so I couldn't be abusive.

• As long as I use a lot of psychobabble, no one is going to believe that I am mistreating you.

• I can control you by analyzing how your mind and emotions work, and what your issues are from childhood.

• I can get inside your head whether you want me there or not.

• Nothing in the world is more important than my feelings.

• Women should be grateful to me for not being like those other men.

.......................................

You might also find in him a bit of Demand Man, and perhaps something of The Victim.

[Garlick]

Oh, cross-posted!

From The Victim:-

The central attitudes driving the Victim are:

• Everybody has done me wrong, especially the women I’ve been involved with. Poor me.

• When you accuse me of being abusive, you are joining the parade of people who have been cruel and unfair to me. It proves you're just like the rest.

• It's justifiable for me to do to you whatever I feel you are doing to me, and even to make it quite a bit worse to make sure you get the message.

• Women who complain of mistreatment by men, such as relationship abuse or sexual harassment, are anti-male and out for blood.

• I've had it so hard that I'm not responsible for my actions.

[Garlick]

... more ...

The Victim may adopt the language of abuse victims, claiming, for example, that his ex-partner was focused on power and control, disrespected him, and always had to have her own way. In a few years, he will be using similar reality-inversion language about you—unless, of course, you kowtow to him to his satisfaction.

The Victim is highly self-centered in relationships. Everything seems to revolve around his wounds, and he keeps himself at the center of attention. If you have children, he tries to get them to feel sorry for him as well. He seems forever to be telling you: You don't understand me, you don't appreciate me, you hold my mistakes over my head. Yet you sense that the dynamic is actually the other way around. If you stand up to him about these distortions, he tells you that you are abusing him or says, You just can't tolerate my standing up to your bullying. This recurring inversion of reality is similar to what happens with Mr. Sensitive, but without the introspective psychology, gentle man, or recovering alcoholic routines. If you leave him, you risk his seeking custody of your children, presenting himself to the court as the victim of your abuse and of your efforts to turn the children against him.

[Garlick]

if he wanted something she did not agree to he would just go elsewhere and take it. All the while she thought she was married to a saint and in reality he did bad things and lied.

The only difference here is that he didn't bother lying to you. All the rest is identical.

Was he scared of you? No. So where's the so-called justification for his continued self-serving behaviour?