Been no contact with mum for a few months and got an email today.

[VivaLeBeaver]

Just don't know where to go from here.

Will try and summarise back story. Basically she's not a nice person, very controlling and toxic. Last Sept she had my 13yo dd overnight so I could go to a wedding and according to dd made comments about me being fat and how my legs must rub together and how my brother was so fat he's at risk of diabetes.

She pretty much denied most of the conversation and said in an email to my brother that my dd was a fantasist and a stirrer. My brother was furious and cut contact. All of MN told me I should do the same but I wasn't strong enough.

Fast forward a few months and she sends a nasty email to my brother saying that I had wilfully held back some paperwork. My brother had returned all his copies of wills and powers of attorneys to me and mum told me to keep them. She then started on about (this was later) some certificates of jewellery value that my brother had. I'm asked him about them for her, he couldn't find them. I found them 4 months later in with the legal stuff Id had returned. I just hadn't realised this stuff was all together. I immediately told my mum I had it and she came to pick it up. But the night before picking it up sent my brother that email saying Id withheld it all on purpose.

She gets here, wouldn't look at me, would barely speak. Stood back when I opened the door and let the dogs run out last her. Ignored the dogs (she normally makes a fuss) so they carried on running into the busy street. Made no attempt to help me catch them and stood there with her hands in her pockets and her back to us. I gave her the paperwork, helped her carry a chair of hers to the car which she had asked for back. She muttered thanks and drove off.

I was furious. It was her birthday a few weeks later....I wasn't sure what to do and sent her a card. Got an email reply which said "thanks for the card". That was it.

Ive had no contact since.

So today I get an email which is mainly to my brother but I'm cc'd in. She's moaning at him for failing to return some house keys. And then at the bottom she's put;


Regarding your claim Xxxxxx is not talking to me......I wouldn't know. She sent a card (late) for my birthday end of May - for which I sent her my thanks.
Since then I have been ignored. Just as you ignored my email re keys in April.

Ignoring emails I send to you both puts any ball in both your courts. The last contact was from me to both of you.
If both choose not to respond I have no insights as to why.


So what do I do now? Ignore her? Or reply pointing out how rude she's been and how I consider the ball to be in her court as she hasn't apologised for being so vile. Though to be honest if I said this I think she would blow up. My brother told her last year she should apologise to me and dd and she ranted at me that she wasn't been told what to do by anyone. I expect Id get the same response. To be honest life has been lovely being NC. But I feel sad as I kind of feel that this is the last chance for any hope of reconciliation. But then I'm not sure I want it....

[CarrieLouise25]

Part of me feels like replying because I'm so angry. I want to do a bullet point list email to her of how unreasonable and generally bonkers she's being.

PLEASE don't do this. She will use it against you, and she will twist it all back round on you. Trust me. You will be so angry, that you will desperately want to correct her crazy statements, but she won't ever see it. Normal people can be reasoned with. Narcissists are not normal.

A narc feeds off emotional pain. If you answer to show how angry you are, she'll get a good kick out of it. The only way to win with a narc is to ignore. They HATE it!!!!!!!!!

x

[VivaLeBeaver]

It's certainly been a lovely few months being NC.

I used to see her a coup,e of times a month.....what what she obviously regarded as "perfunctory duty visits". We used to go out together shopping, garden centres, coffee shops, etc.

Must admit I never really enjoyed these trips and guess I did see it as a duty. She always moaned seeing her a couple of times a month wasn't enough. She also thought I should ring her every evening which I refused to do.

Maybe if she was nicer Id have wanted to spend more time with her, wanted to ring her more. She never considers that does she?

[AcrossthePond55]

I'm just reiterating what others have said.

Since her prior attempts to bring you and your brother 'to heel' didn't work, she's now trying to turn you on each other in hopes that one or both of you will come running back to her. Don't fall for it. Don't let your brother fall for it.

Ignore her and do not respond no matter what the provocations. Have an agreement with your brother that both of you will share/copy any communications regarding the other she may send. I would, however, keep copies of all emails/letters from her somewhere out of sight and out of mind. You never know when someone like her will try to 'go legal' or start spreading shit about you and your brother to other family members. Forewarned is forearmed.

[VivaLeBeaver]

I like the idea of writing a letter and burning it. Think I may do that. I actually think I might seek counselling to help me through this. How do you go about finding a good counsellor?


I think my mums childhood perhaps wasn't very happy. I suspect her mother was very similar. They certainly never got on. And my Gran (her mum) was given away as a small child as her mother decided she had too many kids and couldn't keep them all and selected her out of all of them to go and live with a relative. So I think that fucked Gran up. I know that Gran was very strict with mum. And mum was very strict with me and db when we were kids. Beaten with rulers, etc. never once hugged, kissed or told that I was loved.

[VivaLeBeaver]

I think my brother is stronger than me. He went NC for five years with her once before. They've only been talking for about the last four.

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

BACP are good and do not charge the earth. You need to find someone who has vast experience in dealing with narcissistic or other toxic family structures. Bear in mind also that the first counsellor you see may not be the right person, counsellors are like shoes and you need to find someone that fits. This person also must have NO (repeat NO) bias about keeping families together despite the presence of mistreatment. I have underlined that point because it is vitally important.

If your brother has had any communication with his mother then he is not no contact with her. He is low contact instead. No contact is precisely that; there is NO communication of any kind from you.

No Contact also gives us time to grieve and heal from the ending of an unhealthy relationship or friendship without re-entering it. Most of all, we establish No Contact so that toxic people like Narcissists and Sociopaths can’t use hoovering or post-breakup triangulation techniques to win us back over. By establishing No Contact, we essentially remove ourselves from being a source of supply in what is clearly a non-reciprocal, dysfunctional relationship.

[VivaLeBeaver]

Thanks Atilla, that's really helpful.

[highkickindandy]

I want to do a bullet point list email to her of how unreasonable and generally bonkers she's being

I agree with all the other posters who said don't do this. You will just engage in the drama, which is what she seems to be baiting you to do. If the email to your brother was about keys he had, there was no reason to cc you other than to try & provoke a response from you. The second long rambling one is very provocative, she seems to want you to take the bait, argue back & start it all up again - if that's not what you want........ignore, ignore

[VivaLeBeaver]

If she really wanted to sort stuff out like any normal person she'd have surely sent an email saying something like "sorry ive upset you, never meant to. Can we discuss this, I love you".

I really hope I don't turn out like her!

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Viva,

re your comment:-
"I really hope I don't turn out like her!"

This is a very real and understandable fear often expressed by adult children of narcissists or other types of toxic parents.

It will not happen to you because you fundamentally know your mother's treatment of you is wrong and you would never have composed such laboured missives to your own children. You also have two qualities that your mother lacks; empathy and insight.

Find a counsellor or therapist Viva that you can truly work with, maintain your no contact position and live well. You may also want to post on the "well we took you to Stately Homes" thread; you would get support there too.

[No134]

"If she really wanted to sort stuff out like any normal person she'd have surely sent an email saying something like "sorry ive upset you, never meant to. Can we discuss this, I love you"."

Precisely so. It's hard to get your head round what they do, because it's so far from how any normal person would act, that it makes you question yourself. I said to my mother several times, both face to face and in writing, "do you actually want a relationship, or do you just want to be right the whole time?" I never got an answer to that, which I guess is an answer in itself.

[VivaLeBeaver]

134. You're right about her just wanting to be right the whole time. About everything in her life. Little small things which 99% of people would let slide turn into campaigns of justice which last for months. Letters are written to MPs, the council, etc. files are kept of letters, emails. Days and days of research are done.

[DoJo]

Honestly, this is so uncannily similar to the style in which my dad writes, I am almost inclined to believe they are related (although all his relatives have fallen out with him through no fault of his own of course, and because of their unreasonable behaviour while he was an innocent victim every time!)

Anyone who can be arsed to bullet point a list of grievances that petty and that easily explained is never going to be satisfied. I know - I got sucked into the beginning of that kind of back-and-forth and it left me frustrated and angry. Instead, I spoke to my brother, confirmed with him that he was not taken in by the litany of allegations levelled against me, just as I was not interested in any of the comments about him, and we both agreed that the whole situation was nuts.

As I mentioned before, she clearly wants to drive a wedge between you and your brother, either because she does (in her paranoid and unhealthily obsessed state) genuinely believe that you are somehow in cahoots with one another, in which case you cannot possibly convince her otherwise. Or, and more likely I suspect, because she knows that as long as the two of you are able to corroborate each other's versions of events, neither of you will give a second thought to dismissing her wildly imaginative interpretations of the way things happened.

The way I have dealt with it is to give it time. When I have received an email like this, my instant reaction has been the same as yours - to counter each and every point with my own which would be so dripping with reason and common sense that there would simply be no denying that I was right. And that is where they get you - they drag you down to their level by making you play their game, sucking you into thinking that the matter of whether the files were on your shelf is actually important, whereas the real questions are 'why are you so quick to put the most negative spin on every single incident? Why would you rather be 'right' over something so petty than have a relationship with me? Why do you think that our lack of meaningful connection is something I should feel solely responsible for?'.

Once you stop focussing on the details and remember that actually the real problem is that you don't really like each other, you don't enjoy each other's company, and you don't feel that you bring anything positive to each other's lives, it is easier to let it all wash over you and let go of the rage.

[DoJo]

Ha ha - cross posted re the need to be right over everything. It is a tendency I see in myself and I try very hard not to let that overwhelm me because I know how unappealing it is. Nobody ever looked back on their life and said 'I'm glad I won that argument about whether I had been the last one to open the freezer' although plenty of people probably look back and regret that a culmination of those sort of petty spats cost them a relationship which they should have valued so much more.

[VivaLeBeaver]

Yes, I have to rein in my argumentative streak. But at least ive learnt to do this and have the self awareness to stfu. Sometimes I will know I'm right but also realise it's not worth it due to how the other person may take it.

[magoria]

Part of me feels like replying because I'm so angry. I want to do a bullet point list email to her of how unreasonable and generally bonkers she's being.

Ignore that hook and line.

Carry on as you are.

[AcrossthePond55]

It really isn't worth it. She will never admit that she's wrong. Any response from you will only escalate things. Before you know it you'll be in a back and forth exchange that will accomplish nothing

Trust me, I know how hard it is to keep your mouth shut when you know the other person is full of shit. But it's just not worth opening your mouth if it won't do any good.

[Starburst123]

Holy moly! This is not quite the same, but in the block of flats I help look after, we have someone who behaves in exactly the same way - it's uncanny. 134 - you have helped more people than you know posting what you have posted.

With regards to OP, I'm assuming your "D"M is trying to control the outcome of some sort of power of attorney - you do know that you can just let the local authorities in her area take care of this? Sure, you will likely not benefit from her assets (they will be gobbled up by the LA), but quite frankly, are you even slightly bothered about that right now? I know if my DM pulled those sorts of PA stunts with me, I'd be more than happy to let the LA take total control of her assets..
I'm sorry if I'm totally off the mark, but this smacks of "when I'm gone-itis" to me.

[VivaLeBeaver]

starburst. I'm not sure actually. There was some sort of PA paperwork, I think maybe my brother had PA. I'm sure she's changed that now! I'm sure she's changed her will as well. I am kissing goodbye to a significant amount of money (couple of 100k) but I don't care.

She is one for playing the "I'll remember you in my will" game. Her mother was exactly the same and in the end she left her estate to me and my brother and nothing to my mum. It wasn't a lot.....10k each but I don't think mum was happy. Over the last few years she's frequently said (even when things are ok between us) that she might leave everything to my dd rather than to me and my brother.

I suspect now she will leave everything to the local dogs home.

[No134]

Ah yes, I have long ago accepted that I will be disinherited. She will almost certainly leave her whole considerable estate to my siblings, or possibly in trust for the grandchildren. Luckily I get quite a bit of satisfaction from contemplating all the fucks I do not give about this. But it is def worth taking the time to explore carefully how you feel about that possibility, both consciously and unconsciously. The more you understand about your feelings, the less likely you are to be ambushed or blindsided by any trick she might pull.

[VivaLeBeaver]

I'm more upset about her inability to be a nice person and the resulting lack of a relationship more than anything else to be honest. Id rather trade her with all her money for a skint nice mother who I could have a relationship with.

As for when she dies....will I be sad? Dunno. Maybe then there'll be a small part of me thinking i should have stuck it out for the cash! . She's elderly now!

[No134]

Yy, I didn't mean to imply that you were valuing money above relationships. It's just that there are so many different levels to this kind of situation, and it's always the thing you hadn't thought of that comes and bites you from behind.

The true tragedy of it is that in their determination to hold onto their worldview in which they are right and their perfect worldview cannot be challenged, they destroy the real relationships that could actually reduce their need to live in such an entrenched and rigid fantasy world.

But that is not a problem we are going to be able to solve on their behalf. The only trying you can do is put in place boundaries to make sure you don't get dragged down with it.

[Smilingforth]

My thoughts are with you. Very hard

[VivaLeBeaver]

Thanks, it is very hard.

I think the thing I'm struggling with is having no family apart from Dh, dd and my brother.

Ive lost my dad, my gran, my aunt, my uncle. Have no cousins. No other grandparents. And now it looks like ive lost my mum.

I'm very envious of people with large families.

[cozietoesie]

Large families can have their own problems - imagine if you had a whole bunch of people like your 'mother', extreme though that situation would be - so it's entirely possible that someone from a large family might be reading this and envying what they perceive to be the clarity of your own life.

As 134 said, take some time to understand your feelings - that will pay off in the longer term.