"But we took you to stately homes!!!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

(New thread as previous one is full).

It's October 2014, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

More helpful links:

Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Homecoming
Will I ever be good enough?
If you had controlling parents
When you and your mother can't be friends
Children of the self-absorbed
Recovery of your inner child

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Happy Posting

No danger of that, the abuser is my mother and she is now thousands of miles away

I really appreciate everyone's validation that it's ok to think like this. A part of me still believes i'm making it all up and making excuses for my own selfishness. That it wasn't that bad.

My dd is 10 and ds nearly 4. DH is well aware that my mother is nuts. When my father was still alive DH refered to them as The Dementors (as in Harry Potter) because they suck any hope of happiness out of you.

The problem with DM is that she's very subtle so I can't put my finger on something major that she's done that would make me say that's it, no more contact.

If she's anything like mine, if you detach a bit she'll go mad and give you the justification to go nc anyway. Dementors, that's very apt. My DM became very adept at sucking the joy out of life over the last tern years or so

Yeah, my father is a really good dementor. Anything you say, anything you do he has a really good way of apparently saying something nice but actually it puts you down and makes you feel not good enough.

Hmm my father the Dementor. It sounds bizarre when you meet the charming and still highly intelligent man. But you know, it's actually rather accurate ...

mum have you any idea what exactly it is that she's doing? can you say when she makes you feel the most uncomfortable?

i had a lot of recognition in those books - i think j k rowling is a rather smart lady on the emotional plane. lots of resonance in the books with the effects of abuse and 'dark forces' and the quest to overcome them.

How do you cope when it's not just your parent(s) who are odd?

I find it hard that ILaws are too and it makes me wonder if it's 'me'?

My MIL is one of those people who are all matching twinsets and doilies and crystal fairy ornaments but like Attila the Hun underneath.
She managed to stop my son's Christening as she had 'mislaid' an envelope she wanted to give us (with £15 in...), she was a pain during our Wedding etc etc. She suffers many mystery 'migraines' and various 'allergies' (none of which have been noted by any of the various hospitals she bothers on a regular basis). She likes to talk about A. her ailments / who has died B. which of her friends children are doing 'better than you' (all of them and C. the Traffic/weather. No interest in us or our children (apart from photos required for bragging rights)>

She hasn't called our house for, ooh, 4/5 years now (she keeps in touch with H by txt) and she is just difficult about things, eg: this weekend she txts H to ask 'does ds have a Dr Who duvet cover'. He usually doesn't 'share' txts from her (is this odd in itself? he is an odd person too... given his family of origin not surprising but no interest in exploring that or seeing the effects it has) but he txted back: 'NO' and then said to me about it. I told him that ds has two matching duvets of a diff design that he is very attached to (ASD) and my mother sent a Dr Who one last year which has only lain in the cupboard as he doesn't want it on, so MIL shouldn't waste her money as it likely wont get used.
H txts her back and the reply is:
'well, I've ordered it now so expect it to be used'.

I take it that this is typical of her?

Your poor little MIL will be disappointed won't she? If she ever questions it, you can say to her that no it hasn't been used, as you said before she bought it your son was unlikely to want it. If she'd like to check with you first next year, you might be able to work something out that he wants.

There's no need for you to smooth it over. If she wants to be an unstoppable train, why not be the granite cliff?

A friend had a good phrase for people like your MIL. Velvet steamroller.

I don't think it's particuclarly odd for your husband not to share texts. It's probably rather a good thing

No its not you, its them. I manage by detaching from the whole lot of them and think on how they have taught me how not to behave. Also I do not need them or their so called approval.

MIL seems very narcissistic really in terms of personality (along with the mysterious fake illnesses, this is also a stunt that my narc BIL has pulled in the past) and I think you are wise to keep yourself and your children well away from her.

Do you think your DH is still very much in a FOG (fear, obligation, guilt) state with regards to his mother?. It sounds like it.

If the "gift" (and such are never sent without conditions attached) from her is actually sent and unwanted I would give it straight to the charity shop.

Oh Meerka I love love love that about being the granite cliff. I'm going to use that as a visualisation. I am a granite cliff. Strong, impenetrable against crap. Thank you!
it's so hard for me to fight that FOG and that people pleasing thing, but we have to remember that we don't have to do what they want, we can say no, fuck off. We can be granite cliffs, stopping their steamrollers of madness and rudeness.
Attila hope things are OK your end and that you can have a lovely trip away at Christmas.

It will be Ds' Christmas Gift. He will be sad, poor lad.

H is certainly in FOG, but it's actually worse than that, really

eg, MIL recently sent a cheque for £50. made out to both of us.
H asked me to bank it in our joint account (don't know why as he works in a big city surrounded by banks. I live 8miles from nearest one).

I bloody lost it. I have been through every pocket of every jacket and every bag I own and it isn't there. I think it fell out of my pocket?? :(

I confessed to him and he wasn't happy. I got lecture, actually.
He told MIL and she said: 'hmm, well I wont replace it for a month or so until I am SURE it hasn't been banked.' He seemed pleased at this.
It was a crossed cheque to both of us. No one else CAN bank it.
I explained that to him.
H told me to stop 'seeing things that weren't there. It was your fault you lost it, after my nice mummy sent it to start with' etc etc etc

If I have ever dared to criticise his 'perfect' family in the past, I get a very angry response. The fact that mine are awful seems to mean I am not allowed to comment on his, even when their limitations affect the children (cancelling a much looked forward to Christmas visit to PIL on the morning of Christmas Day, as Granny had a 'headache' when the children were 5 and 3, anyone??? cue kids in tears, and us scratching around to make a Christmas Meal when we' not been shopping as expecting to be away.) H did tell MIL to 'F off' for that, but within days it was back to standard practice

Its not a Christmas gift for DS really because she is planning on sending him an unwanted gift. Narcissists also make for being crap gift givers. If this woman really did care at all she would ask you what sort of things he likes now and planned to send him such an item.

I do not know why he asked you to bank the cheque when he could have easily done so. It was likely sent to him in the first place. Is he really at heart like mother, like son.

Your H needs to realise that his actions are simply hurting his own self as well as his family unit. I know what you mean about you not being able to readily criticise his family of origin (although it is open season on mine) because I have had that too. DH has had the wool pulled from his eyes but he simply does not see or even can comprehend (it is painful for him but that does not follow that I have to tolerate it) to realise what his mother is really like. His father, now terminally ill, has come in for an awful lot of stick over the years and he has deserved that as well.

I should be working but can't concentrate for thinking about all this stuff, so here you go, a bit about my background. Maybe if I get it out of my head I'll be able to get back to work.... Sorry if it's long, it's just getting it off my chest.

So I was adopted as an infant (spent my first 10-weeks of life with a foster family before going to my adopted parents). My parents had longed for a child for many years and received very early, experimental fertility treatment which resulted in quads who were born but either stillborn or died within a few hours :( So they then applied for adoption and four years later I "came along".

My DF was an extremely violent and angry man, particularly in my early years. He had huge, terrifying rages, smashing up the house, yelling, swearing and usually ending in his getting into the car and driving off with roaring engine up the road. I feel shaky just thinking about his anger. It was sometimes but not always directed at me. He did hit me round the face a few times, when he thought I was cheeking him. Holidays and days out were the worst as you never knew when the explosion would come (and it would always come). So DM and I were always walking on eggshells not knowing what would set him off.

Because my df's rages were the obvious outer issue, I grew up thinking that my dm was the "good" parent. And frequently wished that she would leave him. But in retrospect, particularly since df's death, I can see that she was both enabler and accomplice.

One of their favourite ways to get to me was to latch on to some small thing I had done wrong and then use it to list all the ways I was flawed, all my weaknesses, all my failings, all the ways I disappointed them. They would back me into a corner and simply shout all these terrible things at me. No matter how hard I tried, I would always end up crying (I think this was their goal) and as soon as I cried, this gave them a whole new litany of things wrong with me: so oversensitive, can't take criticism, always crying over the smallest thing, always miserable, no one will ever like you....etc etc.

My dm was just as active in these destruction sessions as df. They were both verbally and emotionally abusive, constantly critical, gas lighting, and nasty. There was no warmth or joy in our house, everything was negative. My df at least enjoyed music, 50 movies and watching rugby and sci fi, dm doesn't enjoy anything at all. I read somewhere that narcissists don't really have preferences because they're not actually real, and this is my dm to a tee.

Something key happened to me when I was around 5 years old, but however much I wrack my brains, I can't remember what it was. Up until I started school, dm continued working, but all of a sudden she gave up work and became a SAHM (and never went back). She told me that it was because she and df never saw each other. However, there is another truth that has slipped out once or twice and that is that she had to give up work because df "couldn't cope" with me on his own. And even his mother told my dm that she had better give up work. I also know that at that time my personality changed. I went from being a happy chatty little girl (my first ever school report said I chatted too much!) to someone quiet, reserved, shy and timid.

In classic NPD style, I was not allowed negative emotions. I was supposed to be happy, content and maintain just the exact level of conversation and intelligence I was not allowed to have opinions or moods of my own. Even if I managed to hit the correct content and correct pleasant emotion in what I said, then my tone of voice was wrong - getting this wrong (as I did constantly because of course the goalposts always moved) meant risking one of the soul destroying diatribes that they loved so much. God, no wonder I'm terrified of talking to people or expressing my own opinion

As an only child I had the full force of their attention. Materially I was well off even spoilt: tennis lessons, riding lessons, so many gifts at Christmas that I was totally overwhelmed. But no real warmth or love (although they did constantly tell me that they loved me and were proud of me, and I guess that's why I really doubt myself - they SAY they loved me, but their actions speak way louder than words, especially now that I have my own children and know what love actually looks like). I was the golden child when I did well at school and the scapegoat the rest of the time.

I very quickly learned not to go to my dm (and NEVER my df!) in a crisis or when I was struggling or feeling down. Sometimes I did out of sheer desperation or longing, hoping that this time could be different, just once. But it was always a mistake and always resulted in having my worst points listed, my failures catalogued and my poor heart broken all over again.

The LAST time this happened, I was 25 years old, already married. I knew it was stupid to go to them for help but I was in a terrible state. My very-new dh was working abroad, I was trying to finish my PhD which wasn't going well, I had no money, I was depressed and washing my ADs down with red wine. I was considering writing my PhD work up as a Masters thesis and leaving to be with my dh. I think what I really wanted was for them to persuade me to stay, but I needed support understanding and encouragment. How stupid of me. They launched one of their attacks, all guns blazing, taking me completely apart, right up to that point where I was sobbing and they could turn their weapons to nuclear force about how oversensitive I am. I KNOW I'm not making this up because I was an adult, and I remember exactly where we were, which room in their house, the cupboard they had me backed against, everything. My dm denies that they said the things I remember them saying and thinks I "misunderstood".

The pain I felt that day, and even now thinking about it, I can't even imagine what this did to a tiny, vulnerable child. There was never anyone on my side. My parents were a team, always for each other, deeply enmeshed. I had no siblings and no close relatives. I have always felt completely alone. No one ever had MY back, there was no one to stand up for me.

Sorry if this is boring, I could go on and on and on! But it is eyeopening writing it out like this.

Narcissists really are crap gift givers! I read that it's because they can't actually imagine what "real" people feel so they can't put themselves in anyone else's shoes to imagine what they might actually like.

Dm loves to moan about how she doesn't really know what the children would like (because evil me lives so far away...) but she says this when they are sitting right there and she could, for example, ask them ??? She only buys dd clothes, and is completely clueless what to buy for ds (who would adore pretty much any toy in any toy shop) so for his 4th birthday she has bought him a dressing gown

for property it's location, location, location! For us it's detach, detach, detach.
The sperm donor, also known as the bio father of me, now lives in America, he left whilst I was nc with him. I then got pregnant. My son deserves to try to have a relationship with his grandfather and he's proving to be an ok grandfather - from a distance. I don't think I'd have contacted him if he lived on the same continent iyswim.
The sperm donor knows the rules, one infraction, one toe over the line with The Cub and it's back to nc.
He tried it on a few weeks ago with me - he said that lying was what he admired most about me growing up*. I asked if he phoned up to be rude to me or to speak to The Cub because he had exactly 3 seconds to make his mind up. He apologised and spoke to his grandson. The next time he does it I'll just put the phone down. The power in our relationship has shifted and he knows it.
My issues with him now come from MiL's partner, we don't have a great relationship anyway because he's a knob. They were asking about the snow in the USA and if it had effected the sperm donor. I said I don't know or care and his come back was poor dad. He knows I refer to the sperm donor by his first name and insists on calling him dad to me. For me dad is a title that is earned by love, respect and being there, the sperm donor does not deserve it. I love MiL a lot so there is so much I will take but I'm very close to calling him out on it - again. Last time he refused to go places I would be and it puts MiL in a really awkward position which is why I hold back. I think I might have a word with MiL to see if she can squash it before I have to say something.

It'sNeverEasyIsItTiggaxx

*Well I wonder who I learned it from?

muminboots - I am so sorry

There is a lady I know. Her youngest is adopted. I don't know about her eldest. The other day I saw her go absolutely ballistic at her eldest (8) for 'messing up' the youngest one's hair. Just ballistic. It came out of nowhere and they were gone before I had chance to say anything.
I thought, Christ, that child's feelings are more important than bloody hair.
Especially as that child has already been through emotional upheaval (if the eldest was adopted which I do not know for sure).

Muminboots - I'm so sorry. They have been AWFUL. You go ahead - get it all of your chest - it's so cathartic.
Sounds like you've got great insight though. xxxx

muminboots - i can so relate to that child backed into a corner being subjected to that shouting diatribe it's my overwhelming memory of my childhood tbh - that backed into a corner being screamed at and there being nothing i could do to make it stop and often not even knowing what i'd done to make it start.

i can remember some of them so vividly, where i was standing, her towering over me, the inability to escape and word for word some of the worst things said that i can almost feel slotting their place into my psyche in ways that would go on to effect me over and over later on.

i hope it helped getting it off of your chest.

i too have a 'something happened but i don't know what' point and it is strangely reiterated by others (a 'dear' aunt was always fond of saying you were pleasant enough till you were x age and then you were so sullen and miserable - clearly without any lightbulb or desire to have questioned why, what could have happened to make such a young child miserable and silent).

sorry - this isn't meant to be me making it about me but me saying i can so relate and i know how it feels to feel for that poor child backed in a corner taking that when even as an adult it is too much to bear.

muminboots I know the feeling of desperately needing parents and just never getting what you need, sadly I think a lot of us do. Hugs.

Just a quick question- I'm really cross about something and need opinions. My grandfather died a few years ago and left the family small token amounts from a large inheritance, as most of it is held in investments until his wife dies, as the interest is paying for her care. I have had an awful time the last few years (divorce from awful dv husband who screwed us financially), am in a financial black hole and have water coming through the walls of mine and my daughter's bedrooms because it has taken us 18 months to save enough to get it fixed. Apparently there was a provision that we could request an advance on the inheritance money if we needed it, which I desperately have done for the past two years. My parents didn't tell me, and when I asked about the inheritance told me they didn't know the details. They only told me accidentally, and then said 'we shouldn't have told you'. I am a 26 year old woman, and it is MY inheritance, and they have kept the information from me, I have no idea why? That money could have made an enormous difference to our lives had they told me it was available. The more I think about it the more furious I am.

muminboots I'm sorry :( adoptive parents went through some hoops back then but it's gotten a lot stricter since and that is mostly a good thing.

fwiw I was adopted as a tiny too. My mother had a helluva temper but was warm and loving with it. Gracious. My father loved me as far as he understands love, but when the going got tough after she died he wasn't interested. To put it mildly. It's become very clear indeed that it was my mother wanted a child, not him.

You deserved so very much better than what you got. You still do.

tigga it sounds like your handling the sperm donor really, really well. So much difference between being a sire, and being a real Daddy isn't there.

Thanks for the kind words, they mean more to me than you can imagine. I'm sorry that happened to you too HoneyBadger. It's good to hear other people's experiences tbh because it helps me feel less alone and less like I'm making a mountain out of molehill.

glabella absolutely. You have a right to know the terms of the will.

Can you get a copy of it from whereever wills are held?

muminboots don't apologise for posting what happened to you, I think the hardest thing I've had to learn is not to keep on saying sorry about everything. It wasn't boring, it was, as a parent, heart breaking though.

Glabella they probably think it's 'for your own good' and don't want you to be reliant on others. At least, that's what the sperm donor would have thought. They are, for example, twunts.

MassiveHugsToAllTiggaxx

The present buying thing is a massive bug bear of mine with my mother. She will ring me in early November asking what the kids want for Christmas...I won't even have thought about it at that time. Then she gets mad if I can't reel off a list for her. I have so often thought about saying to her 'ask them yourself, or take more interest in them and then you'd know what they'd like'. In desperation (because as a child if I didn't come up with the right answer to something straight away it incurred her wrath and that feeling sticks) I will come up with something. Then there will follow a week or so of 8am phone calls...'I'm in marks and spencers, they don't have such and such in her size, what about this one?'...I have just been woken from a deep sleep and I'm supposed to be able to see down the phone and answer for her. But if I don't, she'll strop, or put the phone down!
I hate it.

x

Saw this 5 Sneaky Things Narcissists Do To Take Advantage Of You thought of us detoxing people from our lives and catching warning signs.

LiveWellTiggaxx

Tigga, your MIL's P is a twat!

Repeat ' is NOT my Dad!' and if you feel so inclined.

"An intelligent person like you, knowing everything that 'man' has done/said to me, offering any kind of support of HIM over me reflects FAR more poorly on you than it does me. Kindly respect my wishes to name him respectfully as he is to me: ."

If MIL was so bloody wonderful, SHE would be telling her Boyf to behave for the sake of her son FFS!

Seems another enabler is in da house...