"But we took you to stately homes!!!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

(New thread as previous one is full).

It's October 2014, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

More helpful links:

Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Homecoming
Will I ever be good enough?
If you had controlling parents
When you and your mother can't be friends
Children of the self-absorbed
Recovery of your inner child

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Happy Posting

honey your posts about your grandfather are moving

In my very difficult teens there was a much older man who became like a grandfather. My adoptive father and stepmother wanted me out of the way bigstyle - I can't remember one pleasant conversation in about 4 years - and he and his wife let me go to their house at some weekends and actually -did- things with me. he and I clicked in particular - specially over fantasy writing, lord of the rings, and poetry (none of his family were interested in it, and not that interested in reading). He took me sailing and even on holiday once. He and my 'grandmother' cared.

We were very close friends til his death about 10 years later and almost all good memories I have from that time come from him.

One adult can make so so much difference.

Honey, your granddad sounds lovely. I really hope I can break the cycle like he did.

Good, I posted on your thread in Dec 2012 and I had no idea at the time that what Mum was doing was exactly the same! Wool, meet eyes.

I think what's freaking me out the most is that I know if Mum came and posted on here about her mother she'd receive the same warm welcome...she wouldn't realise that she's perpetuating the cycle with me/DD.

I guess that's always a risk :( I think hopefully most of us here have enough self-awareness to realise the possibility of doing that and actively trying to break the cycle.

Note to self: let DC stand on their own two feet. Trust their judgement in their partners when they're old enough. If any future SIL/DIL starts really pissing me off, come and post on MN and get flamed for BU. Okay, I can do that! God, I hope MN is still running in 20-30 years time when I might conceivably be a grandmother.

that's the thing really that victims can become perpetuators. ime though the perpetuators don't reach out for this kind of support because they can't entirely condemn the abuse because that would mean acknowledging behaviours they themselves are perpetuating or taking advantage of constitute abuse.

with my sister for example her need to acknowledge the wrongness of our childhoods did not by a long stretch outweigh her need to feel justified in her re-enactment of it in terms of ways of treating me and her children and the men in her life. the latter outweighed the former. being here on this thread would have meant admitting a whole series of behaviours and practices were wrong which would have meant changing how she treats people which she wouldn't have been willing to do because her behaviours were suiting her just fine thanks

she has found herself her enabler, a high earning one who doesn't even expect her to be a sexual partner he's been so long and well trained. there's no incentive really to change anything.

i saw the 'real' person many times and clung on for years in teh hope that real person would win out but it isn't going to. she's chosen to be mum part two

TheHoneyBadger I did put in the email message that any family members who stopped living with mum would be welcome to get in contact with me and be in my life, and I do believe he will pass the message on. Unfortunately, D and Bro are the "phones never charged, emails never checked" type and the landline is picked up by mum 99.9% of the time.

Weirdly, my dad actually hates my mum. Like, screaming that other men would have smacked her one by now, confiding in us kids that they don't love each other and she makes his life miserable. I've been hearing it from him for a decade at this point.

I'm sorry you've had to treat family members as collateral the same way I have - it feels horrible and nasty. With the exception of Bro (who is biding his time until he can live far far away and never see mum again) they're all under mum's thrall to some degree or another.

Meerka I don't want my OH to read the email (though he did offer), because my dad will be responding to some things I said that I feel embarrassed about now. I didn't name-call or anything, the tone of the email was a bit cold and sarcastic and bitter sounding. I told him he failed me as a child when I told him what was happening and did nothing. I'm embarrassed by how mean I was.

I don't think she will come to my house and do anything too crazy, simply because she'd have done it already. Instead she's gone the "poor me" route and decided to play the victim of nasty old outtahell - she's very passive aggressive and manipulative. The thing about my mum is she can really surprise you with how crazy she can get sometimes.

Hello Stately Homers all, old and new! Been absent for a while and what a lot I've had to catch up on. I'm not going to namecheck everyone because I don't want to upset someone by accidentally missing someone out.

I'm surprised, fascinated and horrified by how similar all these narcissistic mothers sound. Very well done to all of you who are able to see it how it is, and break the pattern for your own children. It must be incredibly difficult.

I think I got off lightly compared with some of you but I'm still having my eyes opened to things. I haven't managed to finish the Toxic Parents book because I got to the section where you have to start doing work on it yourself, rather than just reading, and I thought, I need to do this properly, so I'll wait until I've got enough time to devote to it... of course busy life, that time never materialises. I did go through the checklists and was quite surprised at how many I ticked, given that I'd always thought I had a good childhood and indeed was told (by my parents, of course) that I was spoiled. In some ways I was, (riding lessons, expensive presents for birthday/Christmas - i.e. "things") but I remember being very envious of a friend of mine who had materially far less but whose parents were interested in her, and I thought she was the spoilt one in terms of attention - despite her having siblings and me being an only child.

Lots of childhood memories have resurfaced of playing alone in my room most of the time, of having to be quiet all the time, not disturb my parents because what they were doing was important. When I'm out somewhere and someone else's children are being a bit noisy, and I do a look and my friends say "That's just kids being kids" and I think really? Surely well-behaved children just sit quietly, not run around enjoying themselves creating havoc? I was never like that.

But then I do remember them doing some things with me (stately homes and the like!) and think I'm just being pathetic and woe-is-me without any good reason whatsoever. Surely no one's childhood was all sunshine and roses and mine was better than most.

Oops sorry, didn't mean to make this post all about me. Please feel free to ignore; I won't be offended. Some of you have far bigger problems.

thebrideishigh, you know, I sometimes think my mum did me a bit of a favour by being so vicious with me. With my sister D, my mum was much more subtle - less violent, more mind games - and D finds it a much more daunting prospect to get out entirely. My mum and dad also point to the nice things they did/gave us - but the nice things always cost money, rather than thoughtfulness or attention.

It suits your parents for you to think "X has it worse, Y has it worse" - so what, there's always someone who has it worse and personally I'd rather take a few smacks to the face instead of the mental aspect of my upbringing. I've had to work out what normal is and how to be it for myself like you have, and it is so hard.

outtahell "X, Y and Z had it worse" is exactly what my M said when I confronted her about my childhood a few years ago!

I can't imagine being grateful that your mum was vicious, though. I think you've done the right thing in going NC with all of them unless/until they get out of her control. It's a horrible situation with the money you owe and your dog, though. Without knowing your circumstances, I'm sure you are doing everything you can to pay it back ASAP, so you won't be beholden to them. Gifts / loans with strings are really just a way to keep control over you.

My dad was very controlling with money - e.g. he made investments in my name, which meant when I became unemployed, I was ineligible for benefits because I was over the capital threshold. But he controlled the investments himself, so I couldn't cash them in to live off. I wanted to study and he said he'd fund me to do the course he wanted me to do, but not the course I wanted. I refused, so I had to abandon the course after the first stage and get a job, because I'd exhausted my savings and didn't have a penny left to keep the wolf from the door - except I was rich, on paper. There had been other financial control before, but that was the point that I really saw clearly what he was doing, that he was more interested in making me fulfill his dreams than letting me lead my own life.

I mentioned this to my mum recently and she said "I didn't know he did that." She's been known to reinvent history so I'm not sure whether to believe her or not. I'm inclining towards not.

This sounds ridiculous, Bride, but in some ways being the golden child meant being under pressure to entertain her - must tell her something funny and sound interesting. I don't know! Does that sound really spoilt?

Good, am still reading your thread and have just got to the bit about GCSE results. I'm in Scotland, where results are posted out to you. Dsis and I (we're twins) were on holiday with Dad when the Standard Grade results were sent, to his house. Mum couldn't wait a week for us to get back, so she went round to Dad's house, fished under the door with a stick, and got the letters, then phoned us to say she'd got them and could she open them? How weird that your mum did something similar!

cheddar I don't understand why that would sound spoilt at all. It sounds like the parent is reversing the roles and making the child responsible for amusing / entertaining the adult when it should be the other way round. Because if you're responsible for entertaining her, then presumably it's your fault if she's in a bad mood, because you haven't played your role well enough.

Having read your posts, you must see how inappropriate it was for you, your DSis and M to rip your DSD to pieces every night. So really, she wasn't "normal and nice and loving" to everyone, was she? And while I can understand why she resented your DSM, she set you and your sister up to make DSM's life a misery. So she's been manipulative and nasty for as far back as you can remember; it's just that it wasn't aimed at you. If she was always nice to you, then it would be difficult to see her as nasty. Then when she was so awful about your DH and the DCs, it must have been a real shock for you.

Like Good's M, if yours would just apologise, you could make a move towards patching things up (as that seems to be what you want.) But without that apology, you and your DH are doing right to refuse to let her back in. You're not being cruel keeping her from her GCs - any normal GM who wanted to see their GCs would just apologise and do whatever is necessary to see them. But with your DM it has to be on her terms and you have to back down. Don't do it! If she starts with the "woe is me" then say, all you have to do is apologise to DH and promise not to do it again. You are choosing not to do that. Therefore you are choosing not to see the GC. The ball is in your court.

DSD was meant to be "dear step dad" but it looks like step daughter. I guess it should be DSF - "father". I'm not very good at Mumsnet abbreviations yet; sorry!

You're not being cruel keeping her from her GCs - any normal GM who wanted to see their GCs would just apologise and do whatever is necessary to see them. But with your DM it has to be on her terms and you have to back down. Don't do it! If she starts with the "woe is me" then say, all you have to do is apologise to DH and promise not to do it again. You are choosing not to do that. Therefore you are choosing not to see the GC. The ball is in your court.

This is exactly my situationa nd exactly what I am doing. I think cheddar and I are in some weird twin universe or something!

bride have you read the book on emotional neglect called, "running on empty"? a lot of what you say resonates with things in there in how it's hard to see what was an absence rather than a thing done to you. emotional neglect often gets overlooked because you don't remember what didn't happen itms and you end up thinking well i wasn't beaten or abused so why do i feel so sad about it or as if it has left me a bit broken in ways. you talk about being on your own a lot and about your authentic self and character not being allowed or fostered (re: picking your own course of study) but instead being expected to be who/what they wanted - that all comes up in the book too.

i found it a lot more helpful than toxic parents and helpful in seeing what gaps it leaves in people and what obstacles they have to overcome as adults because of what they didn't get as children.

anyway - worth a read i reckon.

even though my mum was awful i still think it's the things i didn't get as a child (interest, concern, mirroring, recognition, compassion, whatever) that have had the more lasting effects upon me and created more difficulties to overcome.

emotional health or wholeness is a bit like a cake that rises well if all the ingredients are put in at the start. not puttting those ingredients in is as detrimental to the individual's life as more overt abuse/neglect.

Hmm, what a very good analogy.

That book sounds interesting, though admittedly I have .. um .. probably 70 books waiting to be read. Damn you Mumsnet, spend far too much time on here!

Agreed with bride. Encouraging picking on your stepdad is very far from a nice and kind act.

I find all this very difficult as my mother is the engulfing/enmeshing type of narcissist and so in many ways she was a good mother growing up. It's the engulfing thing particularly that has caused me problems I think. Making me responsible for her emotional wellbeing, tying me to her, making me like an extension of her.
Like I say, she wasn't neglectful in the normal sense, she was far too involved. It's damaged me and shaped me but it adds to the guilt about NC as it's not so clear cut, you start to doubt yourself...maybe she was just doing her best, maybe I'm over reacting, etc etc. Total headfuck really.

Honey that book sounds interesting; I'll add it to the pile. Thank you. On Attila's suggestion I've also got "Controlling parents" which I've glanced at but not read properly yet.

Meerka 70 books! Back away from the computer and pick up a book...

Good I think they were all doing their best - I very much doubt that anyone sets out deliberately to be a bad parent. Maybe some don't care much either way but most do their best, I'm sure. The trouble is, the effect on the child is the same, whether the toxicity is deliberate or accidental. But there's an extra dose of guilt because you know they meant well.

ye ... my (beloved) MIL once suggested that I sell some of my 100's of books, our house is small. She said that I was a wife and mother now and should sell the books and the motorbike.

I love her to bits, old fashioned as she is :D

Good I started reading your old threads yesterday, never had the full backstory before - still haven't as I was so exhausted by the end of the first one that I didn't have the energy for the second! And that's just reading it!!
Living it, as you did? OMG!!

Thank god you've finally gone NC, is all I can say. I know it's hard, you know I know that myself, and I would never sugarcoat the realities of NC - of course it brings its own hardships and sadness. BUT it offers hope.

With NC you get breathing space to begin to deal with and recover from the impact of all those twisted dynamics, as you are doing in your therapy atm. Your attention and energy aren't constantly being sucked up into dealing with more drama, endless drama - my god, is there nothing on earth she couldn't manufacture a drama out of?? Is there anything she could fail to suck the life and the joy out of? [getting v confused with my double negatives there, sorry]

You had no choice. With NC you can begin to genuinely emotionally detach from your mother, you so badly need to emotionally separate yourself from her and you had no chance of doing that the way things were. Now you have that chance. Which offers you so much hope. You've come so far - a big hurrah for you, and for everyone working on this stuff...

Nice to see you over here, Honey! As you know, I haven't been on top form lately but getting back to myself now.

Hi Meerka too, will get back to you sooner or later, I promise!!

All the best to everyone struggling with nightmare, nutjob families... It's not you, it's them!

The flying monkeys have landed...earlier this week (before I found this thread), I spoke to Mum and offered mutual apologies. If she apologised for saying DH scared DD and then saying he was narcissistic etc, then we would apologise for chucking them out and for not visiting when we were in the area. She was furious that I wouldn't take the kids in to see her even though we were passing. I now wish I hadn't offered mutual apologies, but it's done now.

Fast foward to today - my stepdad calls to basically say that they are rejecting our pre-conditions (ie, the apology) but they want to see the kids anyway. He was calling because Mum was sick of it and had had enough! I was very calm and said I was sorry they felt that way, but no, they could not see the kids until they apologised. He said he was personally disappointed in me. I said Mum was behaving like a narcissist and to please tell her that from me. (Which I now feel guilty about because it's probably the worst thing I could ever say to her). He said we were using the children as pawns.

In some ways it's good it was him - he was in full lawyer mode and it was a v short conversation. Mum wouldn't have been able to believe that I wasn't going to back down and would have stayed on the phone arguing and getting vitriolic.

Shaking!

Cheddar,

Ignore the flying monkeys as well as your mother and her enabler of a husband. Such women like your mother always but always need a willing enabler to help them. Your stepfather is a weak man who was never going to protect you and indeed has failed to do so. He is really her hatchet man and also needs someone to idolise (this being his wife).
Their response is absolutely typical of such disordered people who btw never apologise nor ever accept any responsibility for their actions.

If these two cannot or will not behave decently or civilly they get to see none of you. Honestly you'd be all far better off without either of these two in your lives.

Would suggest also you block all their means of communication to you.

You are definitely not using your children as pawns; you are protecting them instead from such malign influences. Going no contact with them as of now although hard to do (the adult child of the narcissist often struggles with constant guilt so tell guilt to shove off!) Some people really should not have any access to their grandchildren and these two you write of are a case in point. They were not decent parents to you so it follows that they would not be at all decent grandparent role models to your own children.

Hold firm, Cheddar they are being total twats. What normal people wouldn't apologise for being rude?

FIL (he is terminal) is still in hospital and hospital are trying to get him moved into a care home. MIL and BIL have been very busy in chucking out his papers because she knows he is not coming back home ever again.

It is only in the last couple of days that I have begun to feel at all "normal"; have felt like I've been on a rollercoaster these past 3 or so weeks.

Grief does funny things to people I think and in dysfunctional families like DHs family of origin that level of grief seems to be taken to an even "higher level" (well with DH anyway, he's been quite angry at me on occasion and very torn. MIL is being very business like and officious).

DH has I feel been trying to desperately create a relationship between them that just was not ever there.

He's never been one to talk to his dad about anything. DH left home relatively early in terms of men generally leaving home and his dad never made any real effort to talk to him. Any birthday and Christmas cards that were received were always written and signed by MIL, he played no part at all. Talking of Christmas cards he did to them what his mother always did to us (till I put a stop to it), he usually took his time in choosing her a nicely worded card and his dad got one from the selection box!.

Also his dad was somewhat known as a gossip and would have blabbed to all and sundry around the neighbourhood. He also (like MIL) has no friends, no-one apart from immediate family has been into see him. There's a reason such people have no friends; they do not want them and they remain distinctly unlikeable. No man is an island indeed, pshaw.

You people have done your bit to keep me going and for that I am grateful indeed

Hope you all have a pleasant weekend.