"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheMomeRaths]

It's July 2014, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

More helpful links:

Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Homecoming
Will I ever be good enough?
If you had controlling parents
When you and your mother can't be friends
Children of the self-absorbed
Recovery of your inner child

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Happy Posting

Dont waste your energy.
It'll make no difference!

She'll twist things and then turn it back on to you. It'll be your fault and that will get you angry..then you'll have to reply again.

Ignore. Ignore. Ignore!

Good think about this.

The email is merely a change in tactic. Put it into context with the ridiculous amount of voicemails/texts/calls, and with the nasty sneery aggressive shit she was pulling on you yesterday.

Remember the denial of DD's existence.

This is the tough bit, you have to keep reminding yourself of the horrible things she has done, over and over again until you finally win your freedom.

I suggest you block her, or delete all messages/voicemails/etc without reading them for a while. They will only distress you.

One of yesterday's voice mails was a sneering one about maybe we haven't thought about what to do with the dog, oh dear, it would be such a pity if the children missed their holiday, oh well...byeeeee! She's probably forgotten she left that message.
I wasn't even going to go NC, but it's just got to the point where there is no good responding. She used to say about my father (alcoholic) that he lied about everything, as addicts do, and that eventually there was no point talking to him because you couldn't believe a word that came out of his mouth. I feel a bit like that now with her. There's no point, she won't hear me, she'll just twist everything I say.

Another e mail: "Please, G2B, tell me what this is all about. I can´t eat or sleep and I feel I am going out of my mind."
I am soooooo tempted to reply.

That's why she sent it... she has learned to play you like a fiddle. She's a virtuoso.

Don't crack.

Holding your hand, Goodto.

If I write back and tell her why, it will just invite more bullshit, won't it? Really really tempted to tell her why.

another six missed calls.

You can do this love. Switch off the phone, go out, leave it at home, anything.

It will get easier.

Normal people don't do what she's doing. Emotional terrorists do.

If you adopt anti stalking tactics it might help you.

A stalker will ring/contact until you respond. If you don't reply until the 459th time they ring, the only thing that they'll learn is that they have to ring/contact you AT LEAST 460 times before you'll answer.

Radio silence.

If she has to ask what she's done, then she's still the same and won't change.

It's over. Too late, too much has been done and said.

Thinking of you!

Goodtobetter, don't want to add too much as you already have some amazing support on here. But I recognise this behaviour and these tactics from my own mother when we had our own defcon1 a year ago. You will drive yourself crazy composing replies to this vitriol and it makes not a blind bit of difference. Like you I have the love and understanding of a dear brother, who helps to remind just how unpleasant she is. I have the luxury of 200 miles between us but got the sh*tstorm of emails, texts, calls, texts to the kids... It's hard. A year on we are very very low contact, I have not seen her and I email very very occasionally telling her precisely nothing abut my life. It can be done but you have to build yourself a protecective shell......

Really really tempted to tell her why.

Would it help if you wrote it all out here? It might not if it gave you ideas to put it to her, but it helps some people keep silent to the other parties (like on the Dear STBXH thread).

Normal people don't do what she's doing. Emotional terrorists do.

This is a brilliant description. It is terrorism, isn't it.

But obviously not if writing it out would drive you crazy.

good morn - afternoon, good. Hope you're ok and holding strong against the sticky-web bombardment.

Remember no matter how much you want to reply, to explain, to state ... she is not rational. Nothing will get through.

These emails are not in isolation, she isn't going to at last wake up and say ok, i am now calm and ratoinal, please can you tell me calmly? It's not going to happen. Each email is in the context of the bigger picture - she's manipulative and angry and selfpitying and irrational and completely unfair on your daughter.

he lied about everything, as addicts do, and that eventually there was no point talking to him because you couldn't believe a word that came out of his mouth. I feel a bit like that now with her. There's no point, she won't hear me, she'll just twist everything I say.

I am tired of all the drama. You behaved disgracefully to me over Christmas 2012 and I moved out. I have tried really hard to maintain a relationship with you for the children to know their grandmother but you just make a favourite of one and aren't interested in the other, that is embarrassingly obvious.
You just can't let me be. I go away for a holiday (I offered twice to transfer you the money for the utilities and you refused, so don't throw it back in my face about a "holiday at your expense") and if I'm not messaging you constantly, instantly or phoning you everyday you start sending me snarky, passive aggressive messages. I try to send you some friendly messages but it's clear you are already in a rage so when I come back I decide to switch my phone off for a bit and you start bombarding me with vitriol and aggressive voice mails. That's not normal. I am not a pet dog to be brought to heel. You show by your actions what you think of me and my family. I won't play this game any more.
And I don't even know why I am bothering to write this as you won't even understand it, nevermind accept it. I'm sorry it's come to this but I can't and won't do this any more.

That's my attempt at what I might say to her.

I think that's a good start good, think you have more to say though.

She's shown you by actions AND words what her intentions are wrt your family. Nothing short of total and final destruction.

The reason you started your post was because she was systematically trying to destroy your marriage, so she could 'claim' you, isolate you, and your son.

All of this is due to her need to cripple you, as she is crippled. No loving DH (an alcoholic isn't in a marriage with his dw, only with alcohol), so you having a good H will drive her mad and insane with jealousy.

Relationships with her DC - so she will undermine YOUR relationship with your DC, actively hurting your H and your DD in the process.

She's a mess, for whatever reason, but she's chosen to perpetrate that mess, exacerbate it and carry it on down the generation.

What was the title/subject of your 1st thread Good? Was it along the lines of her hating your DH?

Well, your H is only a tool she used to hurt you, your dc too. She hates herself, she hates you as you remind her of where she failed.

She'll never get any better than she is right now. Sad to say your mother and mine are write offs.

We have to be that focused and firm and maybe, just maybe they'll open their eyes and give themselves the gift of change.

But that has to be their sole decision. We can't do it for them.

This extreme form of cutting off and writing off is how one can show dv abusers that they have reached the end of the line with us.

Mostly it doesn't work, but by doing anything less, it certainly won't.

Be strong Good, this is a war that you have to win. The alternative is to go back to being under her spell. That's impossible now. The only way is forward. You're stating that for anyone to go forward with you, there is a basic code of conduct which you will rigorously enforce.

My dm couldn't bear the fact that i'd achieved more than she did, she begrudged every happiness.

My abusive ex was the same.

Neither one has any control over me/my life anymore.

Hmmm. Rewrite:

I am tired of all the drama. You behaved disgracefully to me over Christmas 2012, insulting DH, making up lies and then when I wouldn't go along with you raging at me or threatening to kill yourself. I have tried really hard to maintain a relationship with you for the children to know their grandmother but you just make a favourite of one and aren't interested in the other, that is embarrassingly obvious. I'm sure you will say that you treat them equally, which materially you do, but your lack of interest in your DGD is staggering. You even claimed to me that you "don't really know her". How can you say that when she lived under your roof for 20 months and you see her every week? I will not tolerate favouritism.
You just can't let me be, you must control me at every turn and any resistance to that control provokes your wrath. I go away for a holiday (I offered twice to transfer you the money for the utilities and you refused, so don't throw it back in my face about a "holiday at your expense") and if I'm not messaging you constantly, instantly or phoning you everyday you start sending me snarky, passive aggressive messages. You did exactly the same last summer. Exactly. I try to send you some friendly messages but it's clear you are already in a rage so when I come back I decide to switch my phone off for a bit and you start bombarding me with vitriol and aggressive voice mails. That's not normal, it's really not. I am not a pet dog to be brought to heel. You show by your actions and words what you think of me and my family. I won't play this game any more. I will not perpetuate this dysfunction down the generations.
And I don't even know why I am bothering to write this as you won't hear it, nevermind accept it. I'm sorry it's come to this, it really hurts, but I can't and won't do this any more. I hope you will seriously consider talking to someone professionally about these demons that seem to torment you and maybe some day we can communicate on some level.

I really want her to hear all that, but I think it will either provoke her further or destroy her forever. I think she won't hear it, she'll accuse me of being mad, led astray etc, etc. But part of me feels I need to say it, to stand up for myself. I don't know. I also don't actually want her to apologise and say she's staying and beg me to make up.

On a page about narcissistic traits linked at the beginning of this thread, she exhibits or has at some time exhibited these traits:
triangulation, threats, stalking, shaming, self aggrandizement, selective memory, scapegoating, sabotage, raging violent impulsive aggression, proxy recruitment, lying, parental alienation syndrome, no-win scenarios, narcissism, intimidation, hoovering, harrassment, gaslighting, favouritism, false accusations, sense of entitlement, emotional blackmail, denial, bullying, baiting and anger.
That's quite a lot.

even writing it, without sending, will be cathartic.

I think she won't hear it, she'll accuse me of being mad, led astray etc,

I think she will too. This is what they do.

But part of me feels I need to say it, to stand up for myself.

You've said it. Are you completely comfortable with who she is, just having read your note?

What I personally would do next, would be to write another letter to you, spelling out for yourself what you deserve in your relationships in life, and what you can do to make sure that every relationship you have is a good and strong one.

I would start it with 'Dear GoodtoBetter. You deserve so much more than this...'

thoughts of my father are coming back endlessly atm. Kind of going over again the childhood, awful teenage years and the 2 1/2 decades since, reassessing again what he is / was.

"Meerka, you deserve a father who is loving, supportive and interested in you. A father, a good father, is a hands-on man who cares about his child's wellbeing and their happiness and helps them when he can.

He encourages them to have their own opinions and their own interests. He likes them (well most of the time, everyone has their moments!) for what they are. He has photos of them in his house. He is proud of them. He encourages independence and confidence.

He doesn't make snide and confidence-destroying comments, he gives advice that's intended to help.

He likes seeing them happy. He likes seeing them enjoy themselves. He likes laughing and he cares if they are crying instead.

He lets the child grow up and grow free to be themselves and he cares about his grandchildren.

You didn't get that. But it's okay to say that that's what you should have had, that it's okay to laugh and enjoy life. It's okay to be who you are, not a repressed mouse.

You deserve that, same as anyone. You should have had that. You didn't, but it's okay to enjoy life. Laughter is ok. "

That's a good letter, Meerka. Sorry that you are suffering atm. Sometimes the memories can be overwhelming.
Still undecided whether to send her the letter. Have had nothing since this morning. Can't believe she's given up so easily though.

Meerka, that's a lovely letter. Hugs to you.

Goodto, any time that you're undecided, err on the side of no contact.

She knows - she really does know - what she's done wrong. She's suppressing that information so damned hard, but deep inside her, I'm sure that she knows. Yes, some parts of it might be hard for her to see (favouritism of her grandchildren), but most of it she knows.

If you tell her, she won't have an epiphany - she'll just deny, mock, repress it all further. Telling her will make her fight it. Her own demons, the ones that start crawling up in the quiet, those are the ones she'll have to live with.

Apart from anything else, think of it this way. Someone slates person A to person B. Person B says they've said nothing, but simultaneously, coincidentally, Person A stops speaking to them. It doesn't take a genius to work out what happened.

She knows. She just wants you to tell her so that she can continue the fight with you. Don't satisfy her.

If she's been quiet all morning, start settling to enjoy that.

Good that was better. I'm not goading you here, but I felt you were still pulling your punches! :)

Sending the letter gives her ammunition.

"See?, See what G2B says about me?, poor little me, her mother and this is the thanks I get. I gave up everything to help her and be with her and look how she treats me?!"

Don't give her that power.

Don't give her anything to use against you.

If the letter was going to have any possible effect, i'd tell you, but please know that telling her anything of this will just be met with denial. Flat out Didn't Happen denial.

You would have more success shouting at the wind. Seriously. As impotent as this makes you feel, there isn't *ny other option than to stick to NC.

My DS accident forced me to have contact with DM, she had chances, she blew them all. I called her out on it, she stopped contacting me.

There really isn't any point in you trying to justify a decision that (if anyone else) you'd have taken in a heartbeat.

You are doing what has to be done.