Please tell me, is this as bad as I think?

[SpringtimeForHitler]

I really need advice, I just don't know what is normal anymore.

My DH works full time, often has to work til 1pm Saturday and sometimes Sunday too.

I was made redundant while on maternity leave with DD (who is now at school) and 3 years later had DS. DH's unpredictable hours would make it very difficult for me to work.

Last night we had an argument and he said he thinks I have used him to get what I want (kids and house) and now that I have it I've turned nasty.

His reasoning is that he doesn't get as much sex affection as he would like. My sex drive has nose-dived, I am always knackered, I do not find being a mother easy.

Every single time we have an argument he sneers get a job and says why don't we just get a divorce. The next morning it's like it never happened.

Is it normal for husbands or DP's to say things like this when you have an argument? I'm so tired of it.

I don't want to drip feed so I should say that around the time DD was born and for about a year after he was utterly vile to me. He used to say really horrible things. I threatened to leave and he promised to stop, which he did. But now I think maybe he hasn't stopped, maybe it was so bad back then that what he does now seems ok and not so bad??

[TurnipCake]

He is desperate and will pull at your heartstrings. He would say he'd swim the channel if he thought he was in with a chance. This is panic on his part - you've walked, won't be swayed, he no longer has the status quo of bullying you and he is coming to realise this.

You do not have to talk to him tonight. You don't owe him anything.

He's upset now - think about how upset you've been over the years, think about those heartsink moments where something else has happened. You deserve to be happy, remember that.

[Wellwobbly]

See ACTIONS not manipulations.

When he:

accepts he is a dick and verbally admits that,
states clearly in all the ways he has been a dick
books himself in to counselling
physically leaves whilst
he works hard on growing the f up and becoming a real man,

may be you can get back together in the future.
But all the above is HARD WORK, involves him giving up power and see you as a human being deserving of respect and consideration,

so don't be holding your breath.

Lundy Bancroft says there is hope for change and often it takes leaving for them to realise that the cost of getting away with it has now become too high.
But he says they often leave it to this point and have to see the wife is very firm in her resolve to be single for this to happen.

Please don't waver Hitler! He brought this entirely on himself. You are not being horrible, you are applying consequences for his behaviour.

[Lweji]

I think you need to tell him that you'll perhaps consider going back if he is capable of respecting you, and really changing over a considerable amount of time.
See if he keeps it up.

Honestly, you have already threatened to leave before and although the worst behaviour seemed to have stopped, he was still emotionally abusing you.
He still is. His pleas and not listening to you are emotional blackmail. Nothing else.

[TeaJunky]

Very true lweji.

Sorry op.

[CogitoErgoSometimes]

Under pressure, someone who has relied on manipulation to get what they want will run through the entire card ranging from pretending it's not happening, to promising to change, to threats, to sob-stories..... they'll throw everything and the kitchen sink. If you can detach slightly - which I think you're starting to do - it's quite interesting to watch the process in action. Plus, if you've decided you won't be swayed, these cynical antics can actually serve to strengthen your resolve.

Tip... don't play to his timetable but take control. If he 'decides' you'll talk tonight, for example, make it a different night or say you'll get back to him. Anything he suggests from now on, change some element of it. Good luck

[TeaJunky]

Op, I agree with wellwobbly.

If his actions show to you that he has indeed changed, can be normal and a good person and treat you well - and if you still want him - then you can decide. But I believe that can only happen if you have some distance between you first and IF he does indeed change permenantly for the better.

[MerryMarigold]

I would use his current repentant attitude to do some marriage counselling, possibly whilst you are living apart. He needs some strategies for how to communicate his needs properly without resorting to insults. You need to work through what went on 4 years ago and let it go, otherwise there is no future, however much he changes. He also needs to acknowledge all the times he's really hurt you, and be properly sorry. Not sorry that it means he will lose what he loves, but sorry that he hurt you.

IMO

[SanityClause]

Has he ever worried about making you cry, Springtime?

Thought not.

[QuintessentialShadows]

"It's just hard to see someone so upset"

For you it is, not for him.

Which is why he has seen you upset rather a lot, and his reaction to you being upset is to sneer at you and taunt you with divorce.

Now that HE is upset, what does he do? Plead.
And you feel it hard.
Dont. Think about how he treats you when YOU are upset, and maybe you can harden your resolve.

I suggest you stick to your plan. Start decluttering, move important documents out, and look for somewhere to rent that does not include him. You dont have to tell him every step of the way what you are doing. Keep your cards close to your chest.

[MerryMarigold]

He also possibly needs some anger management. It's hard to read based on sketchy accounts, but it could be that he is just emotionally immature and needs some help growing up. Whether you love him enough to wait for that, and whether he will acknowledge his need, are 2 different things.

[QuintessentialShadows]

"He will not accept my decision."

He does not have to accept it. It is your decision. HE cant change it.

You just continue getting ready to move.

You in turn, dont have to accept that he does not accept it. You just go on, and move on.

[CogitoErgoSometimes]

@MerryMarigold. Joint marriage counselling is not recommended where there is emotional abuse going on. Emotional abusers are very sly and manipulative people - as demonstrated in this man's reaction. Because they do not think they are in the wrong and have no intention of changing, they often use counselling sessions as a source of information to use as ammunition and/or a place to make more empty promises. Not as a platform for improvement.

[SpringtimeForHitler]

I did say to him, what about all the times I have cried.

Something happened a few weeks ago regarding a very close family member, I was distraught, called him sobbing down the phone. He listened to me for a few moments then asked why was I so upset? The family member involved had always been an arsehole. Then announced he was busy and had to go. He wasn't at work, he was just out doing his hobby.

[CogitoErgoSometimes]

Ooh... cold fish.

[QuintessentialShadows]

It just proves he has no regards for you. No empathy.

Think about how cold he is to you when you are upset, and let that be your guiding star as to how to respond to him.

[SpringtimeForHitler]

I asked him when he got back, weren't you concerned that your wife was at home in a such a state??! He just kept saying he didn't understand why I was so upset and I knew he was doing his hobby didn't i?

[QuintessentialShadows]

Not very nice and supportive at all.

[NotDead]

It sounds like he is having horrible thoughts of insecurity - almost paranoia. As these coincide with periods where you can't support him emotionally, it shows he is obviously very reliant on your approval. In arguments, it feels as though you withdraw all your approval for him and he is lashing out - not saying its acceptable, just that there might be an understanding route through this.

When you both most need emotional support from each other you argue perhaps instead of breaking the cycle?

I am sure his advisers, if he has any, would be saying 'can't she see all you do for her, working all the time for money with no appreciation' - similarly far too onesided to help.

I suggest in the 'warm' periods, some problem-solving as to why the nuclear strike happens, (I suspect this is because he can feel that you are about to detonate yours) and some honesty about why these feelings are there. IT might be too difficult, but I still think its worth a try.

[Xenadog]

Springtime you are holding the cards now, do not give them away. He is repentant as you are not marching to his tune any longer. I would suspect he is trying and saying anything to keep you there for him and not because he truly is worried about what he is losing.

This is the start of your new life without him, keep looking forwards and make your life now on your terms and not his. X

[SpringtimeForHitler]

I just want to thank you all again for taking the time to reply to me. I really appreciate it.

Teajunky I would never break my family up just because some internet strangers told me to, promise when you have lived with a man like this the constant drip,drip,drip of comments and nastiness becomes normal. I have constantly questioned myself, is it me? I had an unsettled childhood so don't really have an example of a good relationship to hold mine up against if you see what I mean?

[hellsbellsmelons]

So......
HE'S not listening
HE'S not accepting your decision
HE wants a meeting
HE doesn't want it to end

Do you see a pattern here? And do you know what? You are expected to accept this because it is what HE wants!

Well not anymore. This is now all about what YOU want.
He isn't listening to YOU
He doesn't respect YOUR decision
He won't let YOU end this.

Tough - it isn't up to him. You do NOT need his permission to end this relationship.

Is there anyway your mum can be there when he arrives to have a chat tell you how it's gonna be?

Tell him you do NOT want to talk about it.
You need some space and he needs to move out.
If he won't - can you go to your mums for a couple of days? Is she close enough to the school? Can she help with school run if not?

This is HIM - this is who HE is - YOU cannot fix him.
You have to stop feeling sorry for him. This all part of the script!

Keep strong and follow through or things will not improve as he will have got away with it again!

[MerryMarigold]

Cogito, I haven't seen anything that says he is sly or manipulative (he may be but haven't seen that), or that he would go to counselling with no desire to change. He sounds emotionally immature (but emotional), lacking in self control (saying hurtful things on the spur of the moment) and lacking in an ability to communicate his needs (he is allowed to have needs, but needs to communicate a lot better). He also works too much which is going to have adverse reaction any the closeness in any marriage. He should work less and spend more time at home, but that would involve a change in lifestyle with less money. Has the OP communicated (in the past) that she would want this, and be happy with a lower income?

I don't know him. I don't know many awful men or perfect men either, just my fairly average dh. We have to work very hard at our marriage because we both have a tendency to those things above. We have both been verbally abusive to each other in the past and said the kind of things this dh has said, but a) it is mutual (does that make it better?) and b) we have both felt the need to change and get help with being married.

I think some men (and women) are genuinely awful, and people need to LTB. I think others (dare I say, most) need help to change dysfunctional behaviour rather than jacking it all in, which has huge consequences. One of the consequences is that they don't change (either of them) and just bring it to a new relationship, new kids etc. etc. The cycle goes on. The difficulty with the internet is you can't hear tones of voice that things were said in, you don't know what was said or implied before the awful thing was said.

[Lweji]

It's hard to read based on sketchy accounts, but it could be that he is just emotionally immature and needs some help growing up. Whether you love him enough to wait for that, and whether he will acknowledge his need, are 2 different things.

A few things here.

It's not about whether she loves him enough or not. It could also be said that he doesn't love her enough to treat her with respect.

It's not her responsibility to help him grow up emotionally. It is his and his alone. All she could possibly do would be to support him in his growth, IF he asked for help.

In any case, Springtime, cannot be expected to wait forever, or put up with abuse just because her OH has issues that hurt her.

[SpringtimeForHitler]

Over the years I have tried desperately to understand why he acts like this? What can i do to make it better? More housework? More sex? Thinking I have made my bed so I should lie in it and be grateful I have a house and food in the cupboards.

I have asked him why on many occasions, mostly he says he doesn't know, occasionally he will say I have always known how he is and don't expect him to change now. Sometimes he tells me I know where the door is.

Now I have told him I have had enough he suddenly thinks he has all the answers, maybe he does but how can I possibly believe a word that he says now? Maybe he would be lovely and try to be better but in 6 months he could go back to normal. I don't think I can take that risk. I don't think it is my place to be his psychiatrist, which is what I have tried to be for years. I have 2 children, I don't feel I have the energy to try and manage his moods anymore.

In the past I have noticed that the washing basket is downstairs and I have forgotten to put the washing away because I've been distracted by the kids. I panicked and dropped what I was doing to run upstairs and put it all away before he got back. Not because he will shout, but because of the sighing and tutting.

[QuintessentialShadows]

I think you are finally realizing that there is NOTHING you can do, he is choosing this behaviour because it is who he is.