'infidelity is caused by problems in the marriage'

[Wellwobbly]

This has come up again in a thread.

I can't cut and paste (copyright), but would like to post three links of differing views, and ask people's input of what they think of them?

First:

www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/07/couples-therapy_n_3977035.html?utm_hp_ref=divorce&ir=Divorce

Second:

chumplady.com/2013/10/it-takes-three/

Third:

www.davidclarkeseminars.com/apps/articles/?columnid=508&articleid=3813

What do you think?

[Lweji]

Affairs are not accidents. They require conscious decisions.
As such, all that is needed is someone who is prepared to cheat.

Even car accidents, apart from external causes, are caused by bad drivers (intoxicated, speeding, not paying attention).

A better analogy might be suicide. Even in the same circumstances, not all people kill themselves.
Only those who are prepared to.

Yes, there may be reasons in the cheater's or suicidal's head, but it ultimately goes to how they deal with those reasons.

[Offred]

Lazyjaney - ok then can you reason out the mechanism by which marital discord causes an affair?

[nooka]

Every individual case of infidelity will have its own root causes, to do with every player involved, and their relationships. However having an affair is always an active choice, it doesn't just happen. That choice is made by the people having the affair and no one else. My dh had an affair, and the thing that really helped me most was my counselor telling me I was not responsible for his choices, only my own. Which is a bit of a truism really, but it can be very easy to take on responsibility for other people's actions.

My dh is not a bastard, and I don't believe he would ever have thought that he was the sort of person who would have an affair. Many years down the line he tells me he finds it hard to understand why he had that affair (and why he chose the person he had the affair with). Did our relationship have difficulties, yes, but they were fairly normal difficulties, and given that we were both unhappy it is interesting (I think) that I never considered at any point becoming attached and/or sleeping with someone else. If problem = infidelity how come it is nearly always just one person in the relationship who makes that choice?

I don't believe that either my dh or his OW were wicked evil people, they were however during that period incredibly selfish, self absorbed and cruel. I totally get that affairs make people 'high' idea - when dh was actively involved with his OW he was very happy and clearly got a big buzz out of it (think teenage crush). I on the other hand have never been more miserable, and yet even though he had totally withdrawn and was a total bastard, never thought I know what I'll shagg the milkman...

Sometimes even good people do bad things, and although there are of course perceived triggers, fundamentally they are excuses, not causes.

[nooka]

The article from Pittman was I thought very good. I certainly recognise a few of the stereotyped players.

[moonfacebaby]

I think Charbon hits the nail on the head - it's poor coping skills.

My marriage wasn't perfect when my exH started his affair. After it came out, he would tell me his needs weren't being met. I would always point out that a lot of my needs weren't being met either - but I didn't have an affair. I got blamed for his affair too.

If you add selfishness to the poor coping skills as well as poor boundaries, then you've often got a combination that will more than likely lead to an affair.

At the end of the day, I still believe that if you are unhappy, then you leave or work on your marriage.

The most enlightening thing about my experience of this is that a year on from my marriage breakdown, I've accepted what has happened, yet my exH is the one that is consumed by bitterness. He may have the OW but he has lost so much more & having the live with the consequences of his actions is evidently far worse than he ever thought.

I do understand that life isn't black & white - but one of the many reasons that I'd like to think that I'd never have an affair is because it's just too messy. I remember being attracted to other men whilst married - I knew how easy it would be to cross the line - but I had the foresight to see that an affair isn't the answer to whatever dissatisfaction you may be experiencing. The thought of having to see the damage done would be too much for me to handle.

[Charbon]

You appear to misunderstand the basic tenet of this argument LazyJaney.

I am not saying that in the history of infidelity, affairs have never occurred after the unfaithful person has been experiencing difficulties in their relationship.

But let's work with your driving analogy because when adapted, it's a good one. The police deliberately stopped calling road traffic collisions 'accidents' some years ago. This was in recognition of the fact that no collision is 'accidental' because there will always be an error or bad choice involved, even in rare cases where the car(s) or the road maintenance is faulty.

So collisions aren't ever caused by intoxication. They are caused by someone's decision to drive unsafely while intoxicated. An intoxicated person has a range of choices other than to drive.

This is about choices and decisions. A person experiencing marital unhappiness who decides to have an affair chooses that action instead of others, such as investing more, discussing solutions, booking counselling, waiting and seeing if things improve when trying circumstances such as poverty and raising young children change, or of course leaving the relationship.

Blaming problems in a marriage for making an infidelity choice when others existed is as flawed and irrational as a drunk driver blaming the booze itself or his/her drunkenness. Just as most marriages will be unhappy at some point, most people in the western world will have had too much to drink on occasion. Not everyone has driven a car at those points and caused an accident just as not every person experiencing marital unhappiness will have an affair.

[Charbon]

All of those things you describe baby would be justifiable reasons for unhappiness but those things do not cause an affair, which is the premise of this thread.

There's an entirely different discussion to be had about alternative and honest solutions to deal with unhappiness, or the issues raised in FrightRider's post when we know that a relatively small number of affairs are used as the getaway vehicle from a relationship a person wants to end and so it's not inability that's the issue there, it's a complete lack of desire to finish a marriage.

[Offred]

? Wtf? No, the answer is to leave or sometimes to choose an affair but acknowledge that it is a dubious choice...

[Lazyjaney]

"You appear to misunderstand the basic tenet of this argument LazyJaney"

I understood it perfectly, you argued that because situation A could lead to outcome X, it therefore could not lead to outcome Y, and I called you on it.

You've now shifted your position, screened by obfuscating wordplay, to a position that says that if situation A can lead to outcomes X or Y, then because a person can choose path X or Y (which is in itself debateable) therefore choice Y (the one you don't like) is not be caused by situation A.

What you are in effect arguing is that in any situation where there is a choice of outcomes, only the ones you approve of are caused by the situation.

The suicide argument above also has the same flaw, ie that because some people do not choose suicide as a way out of a situation, suicide therefore cannot be an outcome of that situation

IMO all this mental gymnastics is to hold on to comfortable myths rather than an unpalatable truth.

[Offred]

I think you are reading something that isn't there lazy. Your interpretation of charbon's post makes no sense.

Can you reason out the mechanism by which marital discord causes infidelity i.e. makes it happen?

[FrancescaBell]

Your interpretation of a perfectly logically delivered argument with absolutely no changes in position whatsoever is most odd, Lazy. If anyone's argument is contorted by peculiar mental gymnastics, it is yours.

Therefore using your own opinion about why anyone would do that, I conclude that it is you who needs to hold on to comfortable myths rather than face an 'unpalatable truth'.

As has been pointed out, the people who hold on to the myth you're expounding have vested interests for so doing.

Seeing as your posts regularly argue on MNet for men's rights to behave badly and unfailingly blame women for their male partners' behaviour, it wouldn't take a rocket scientist or a gender determinist to work out why you take these positions and hold these views.

[Offred]

How does something being the least worst option mean that it is not a choice and not wrong?

Yes, long term sick partners are one of the more understandable kinds of affairs. But still a choice and still not right.

[Lweji]

What people are arguing is that cheaters choose to be so, regardless of the excuses they come up with.

For something to be a cause it has to cause the effect virtually all the time under the same circumstances.
Although some instances of cheating my be more excusable than others, it's still the cheater's choice.

In the same way that a wife swearing at her husband doesn't cause him to hit her. It's his choice.

You may not help thinking of another person, and you emotionally distancing from your partner may be caused by problems in your marriage. But, you pursuing that extramarital relationship and sleeping with that person is always your choice. And that choice wasn't caused by problems but by your own will.

[JustinBsMum]

'infidelity is caused by problems in the infidelitous spouse' would be more truthful I think

Whether that is problems in their loyalty, love for the other spouse, overwhelming attraction to someone else, anger over treatment by their spouse etc etc etc

[ComfySlipperGirl]

'infidelity is caused by problems in the infidelitous spouse' would be more truthful I think

I agree with this. I am (only vaguely, doubt it will happen) considering an affair because of issues within myself. My DH is wonderful, our marriage is happy. But factors outside the home are very complicated and screwing with my mental health, and this is manifesting in an attraction to someone other than my husband, and a weird notion that physical intimacy with this person will help me deal with these problems. It's bizarre, I recognise it as a false and misplaced attraction, but intellectually recognition of what's going on doesn't stop the primal feelings.

Does that make any sense?

The point being, the urge to cheat on my husband has its root in my head and a situation completely external to my marriage.

[nooka]

I think there is also something about ownership and accountability. I own and hold myself accountable for the unresolved problems in our relationship at the time of dh's affair. As does he. We reacted in our own somewhat dysfunctional ways, and again we hold ourselves accountable - there were issues, habits and faults on both sides. I am not accountable for his actions though, nor he for mine.

I thought Chandon's analogy was spot on, relationship unhappiness/ problems/ breakdown are at most a proximate cause, there will be many unique to the people in question root causes. I am sure that there is a very strong correlation between marital problems and affairs because in general the type of dissociation that is required to have the affair will have already been manifesting itself for a while and it is very hard to have a successful relationship with someone who isn't fully engaged.

I also recognise that sometimes affairs come from a place of despair and may be thought to be the least bad option at the time, but do often make things much worse (we have an example of this in my family - totally understandable, but still very wrong/destructive). Mainly because of the deceit, because it is very difficult to love someone you are deceiving, or to continue to love someone that has/ie deliberately lying to you. Plus there is often a significant amount of collateral damage to third parties (children, family, friends).

[TortillasAndChocolate]

Surely every marriage has problems - I don't know anyone with a perfect marriage. It's par for the course unless you're a newly wed perhaps. Everyone has ups and downs (obviously to very different degrees!)

So it's easy to have an affair and then find some problem in your marriage to blame for it.

[saferniche]

yes, yes Nooka - especially

'I am sure that there is a very strong correlation between marital problems and affairs because in general the type of dissociation that is required to have the affair will have already been manifesting itself for a while and it is very hard to have a successful relationship with someone who isn't fully engaged.'

And ComfySlipperGirl you know what we're going to say, don't you? You have a wonderful dh. Mess about outside your marriage and you risk losing everything, however good it is now. DON'T DO IT. Go and talk to someone instead. Be very careful.