Victim of domestic violence asked to leave holiday park!

[ClementineKelandra]

Ill try and keep this as concise as possible.

I'm on holiday in Wales staying in a caravan. Last night about 11pm an argument started between a couple in the caravan nearby. I say argument but it was mostly a man shouting.

It quickly escalated and the women was screaming, she sounded terrified, and there were children screaming "mummy" too.

At this point I phone the police. Very quickly the security guards from the site turned up. The woman was sobbing , said she was ok and the security guards quickly left.

As soon as they'd gone the man left the caravan. Moments later the police turned up. They spent some time searching the site but eventually the man was found and arrested.

This morning the women was sat outside the caravan and I went over to check she was ok. She has a broken nose! :( the caravan was a bit messed up too. Several internal doors were off their hinges.

We talked for a while and she told me she'd been asked to leave the holiday park!! I Wa stunned at this but she said she was going to leave anyway as her and the dc didn't want to be there after everything that had happened the night before.

I couldn't stop thinking about her being told to leave and later that day I went to speak to the general manager of the site.

He confirmed that yes she had been asked to leaved because they had a zero tolerance policy on violent behaviour.

I pointed out to him that it was the man who had been violent, he'd assaulted the women, she is basically being punished for being the victim of a crime and by asking her to leave they were implying that she was in some way to blame for the mans behaviour.

We talked about it for quite a while and I tried several different ways to get my point across. To be fair he did really listen to me and tried to understand but basically he didn't get it.

He also trotted out the usually ill informed stereo types "women like that never want to press charges" etc.

I'm so angry. In one way does it really matter because she wanted to go home anyway?

But on the other hand if we don't challenge such ignorant attitudes towards domestic violence then nothing is ever going to change. I feel like I want to do something to make the holiday park realise how wrong their attitude is.

Sorry if this is a bit jumbled. Trying to keep it as short as possible.

[zippey]

I think the park manager did the right thing by his business, its what I would have done too. The victim needs to help themselves before other people help, by pressing charges. It's not a black and white situation but in that respect the victim is enabling her abuser if she stays with him/her.

And what sort of parent is she picking the abuser over the sanity of her children?

Anyway, this is probably a different conversation, but the park manager did the right thing

[Dahlen]

Clementine - you're right to pick up on my clumsy choice of wording. I didn't meant to imply that the victim was responsible in any way. What I meant was that by not leaving they are exposed to further abuse, but I should have made it clearer that IMO this doesn't make them responsible because the reasons behind not leaving are so complex and part of the abuser's armoury.

[tittytittyhanghang]

MrsBungle, im sorry to hear of your childhood, similiar to mine except the dv was extended our way as well! Its not right that any child should have to experience that, and sometimes i do think that after the first outburst, if the victim chooses to stay then the children should be removed without havin to subject them to years of dv first. Ill never understand why my mother put a man before the welfare of her children because that is what it comes down to for me.

[ThatGhastlyWoman]

Give me strength...

[LEMisdisappointed]

I don't know if anyone has said this already but for me, the "decent" thing for the holiday park to do would be to offer this woman a complimentary break (possibly at another park) as they had to cut her holiday short.

[LEMisdisappointed]

There are unbelievable posts on here - that women "choose" to live with abuse. That these women are bad parents!!

really? People think that??

[OddSockMonster]

That really sounds horrific for her, that really is great that you called the police and spoke up for her, and too her Clementine, I hope it made that little bit of difference for her to be able to leave.

Re: the site manager's opinon of her actions (including saying it was all okay to the security guards), could you possibly e-mail them a link or something that would explain how she behaved as she did? And maybe copy in the head office? Might have no effect at all and get ingored, but you never know.

[tittytittyhanghang]

as a child victim of dv, yeah i do bloody believe it. My mother stayed with a man that beat the shit out of her and her children. I didn't get a choice in the matter. So as far as im concerned some of the blame for my shit childhood lies at her door as well.

[Junebugjr]

I think the issue of DV needs to acheive a balance.
I don't think the view of 'its your fault if you continue to stay with him' is helpful.
I dont think 'the poor woman/victim/helpless' approach works in real life either , particularly not in a professional setting working with DV. Attitudes and society has changed now, this isn't the 1900's where women have nowhere to go, there are choices.This is reflected with SS now taking a more firm line on women who chose to stay with abusive partners, after countless episodes in front of children.
Women need to be more educated about DV, with programmes run in schools more frequently, with an emphasis on emotional abuse and control, where it seems to start, gradually escalating, and before you know it, your smack bang in the middle of an abusive relationship.

I often think there needs to be a more open dialogue on DV, it's sort of become one of those topics (like religion/burka etc) that has a knee jerk reaction and isn't discussed openly like it should be, and just has people weighing in with the how terrible, poor woman remarks. I've seen threads on here that clearly state the woman is culpable in abuse of children but because she is in an abusive relationship that sort of absolves her.

In answer to your OP, yes I think the holiday park could have handled it better . How kind you were OP.

[Lweji]

The fact is that children can be taken away from their mothers because they fail to protect them from DV.

The women who fail to protect their children need help. But they are still being bad parents in the sense that they cannot be trusted with their children, while they are exposed to the abuser.
That's where we, as a society, come in to give as much support as possible to these women and their children. Not only at institutional level, but also as family, friends and neighbours.
As June said, we need more information and support too.

But, when the support is there, and if we keep going back to those men, because they miss them, or whatever, it's hard to be sympathetic.

I am also saying this as a victim of DV, who got away as soon as DS was potentially on the line.
I know I was not to blame for what exH did to me, but I would blame me if I had let DS come to harm, knowing of exH threats and behaviour. As exH decided to expose DS to violence, after I left, I have ensured there would be a smaller chance for it to be repeated.

I understand that for some women it's so much more difficult and they have been much more damaged, but we should also demand that they (we) take some responsibility towards their (our) safety and of their (our) children.
That includes LTB, reporting to the police, and so on.

This is not in relation to the original case, because we don't know the history.

[Lackedpunchesforever]

It's 2013.

And the attitudes on this thread are horrific

OP you are amazing. I wish someone like you had spoken up for me.

[ReallyTired]

The victim of DV is only one person in a situation. Social workers look at the affects on the people around them. ie. children. Infact DV is an extremely common reason for children being taken into care.

I experienced a violent relationship at 19. It pychologically knocked me for six. However there is a difference between needing help and being helpless. I believe that women being passive in a violent relationship is a genetic throw back to cavemen days when women were kidnapped and taken hundreds of miles away from their families by a different tribe. Ten thousand years ago to run away from DV situation endangered the lives of a woman and her children.

i believe that depression makes it harder for a woman to break away from an abusive relationship. I believe a CBT type approach would help women in such relationships.

The children of DV relationships need extensive help so that they can break the cycle.

[edam]

Good grief, some of the posts on this thread are chilling in their contempt for victims of violence.

Posters who blame victims - do you realise that a woman is most at risk of being killed when she leaves the aggressor? You are demanding that people who are already at risk put their lives, and the lives of the children, on the line.

What victims need is support, not blaming. They need help, they need access to a place of safety, they need money to survive, they need shelter, they need all sorts of things that the rest of us are very bad at providing. That shames us, not them.

We don't blame victims of muggings for being mugged, do we? We don't demand that they fight off the attacker, do we? Yet somehow some people blame victims of domestic violence, and demand that these downtrodden, weary, brutalised women (mainly) sort the whole ruddy problem out.

And yes, some social workers are ignorant, and threaten victims of domestic violence, instead of acting against the aggressor. These social workers need to take some responsibility for educating themselves and ensuring their advice is safe, not dangerous. They should never demand that victims take responsibility for the crimes committed against them.

There is a poster on MN who is a social worker herself. She - and her children - were victims of domestic violence. Her neighbours heard the screams, and called the police, who called social services. Who threatened her that if she didn't leave, the kids would be taken into care. So the poster took the next beating in silence. And the next. She'd learned that if she cried out, she'd be threatened and punished and her kids would be threatened and punished too.

She did eventually manage to leave. But only once she'd got somewhere to go, and worked out a way to leave without being killed in the process.

[ravenAK]

Had the woman & the partner who'd had the violent altercation both still been on site, wanting to continue their holiday together - fine, ask the entire party to leave.

Since the bloke had been arrested it would seem the obvious thing to ban him from returning, & allow his victim & her dc to stay. I'm sure it wouldn't be impossible to fix the damaged doors etc whilst they were on site.

Well done OP for supporting her.

[K8Middleton]

CBT? Wtaf.

DV abuse victims don't need CBT. They need safe havens to flee to and lots of practical help and support, but most of all they need the purportraiter of violence removed and punished in such a way they cannot continue their criminal acts.

[Sparklyboots]

As a child victim of DV, I can understand anger with women who don't leave men who are violent to them and their children. However, I have realised that all of the blame for the violence lies with the perpetrator and have felt able to let go of my anger that she did not protect me. In fact, the idea (that we all shared in my DV family) that my mum was responsible or enabling was part of the doublethink that kept her there. Actually when she realised that he just was violent and always would be she was able to leave. But she had a supportive family, somewhere to run, and a conviction that if she did so, she wouldn't be tracked down and killed, and her children would be safe. These are significant aspects of the situation that people shouldn't assume are common to all situations. The way that DV happens, inside a family system, makes thinking with this kind of clarity very very difficult and it is completely understandable that an emotionally exhausted woman might not be able to achieve it. It is right to support those women and not condemn them.

OP, well done for speaking to the owner. I also think offering a replacement holiday for her and her DCs (on the condition they come without the violent man) would be the stylish way for the holiday park people to handle this.

[ClementineKelandra]

I think they should offer her another holiday too.

I can't tell you how disappointed I am by some of the posts on this thread.

[ageofgrandillusion]

The only victims here are the children, end of. Everybody else had - or has - a choice in the matter.

[minkembernard]

OP well done your compassion does you credit.

Actually there was something more the site manager could have done. they could have sent site security back after her partner had been arrested to find out if she was really ok and if there was anything they could do and if he was likely to come back.


but what evicting this woman tells her and what some attitudes on this thread tell her (the vocal minority thankfully) is that she is partly to blame. and that is precisely one of the things that keeps the victims of DV in their situation. her abuser will have been telling her it was her fault and now so are other people.

presumably the fact that he was arrested and his license revoked means he was in fact charged.


and the assumption that she is going to take him back and that she is allowing this to happen is just that an assumption based on prejudice. maybe he is out on license because she has already had him charged and convicted. maybe he tracked her down and belted her one because she had him charged.
maybe, maybe not. but some posters already seem to think they know. she is one of those women. you know the ones who choose to be abused.

they should not only teach respect in school but also how complex issues around abuse are. Lundy Bancroft should be compulsory reading. Few posters on this thread could do with borrowing a copy from the library.

OP did the.police take a statement from you?

someone up thread said she is the only adult witness. not true. the police can take statements from people who heard or saw anything related to the incident.

[tallwivglasses]

OP - didn't you know? Quite a lot of mumsnetters have never made a mistake in their lives, ever.

[minkembernard]

tall snort.

[soovait]

Have never posted under this name but had to say that this thread has absolutely broken my heart. Posters who I look up to have engaged in some of the worst victim-blaming I have read in a long time.

I grew up in a DV household and now, 40 years later my parents are still together. And I still speak to them both. No matter what issues I have with my mum - and I have a LOT - I never blamed and still don't blame her for what my dad did. That's all on him.

All you posters who have said variations on 'she should get herself out of there or she's equally responsible' I hope the next time you go to post on a EA/DV thread you remember your words on this thread and feel ashamed. (Awaits flaming)

Clem Think you're brilliant for what you did.

[minkembernard]

ageof surely the children could choose to run away could they not if you take that argument to it's logical conclusion.

so what that they have no money, that their parents may come and find them and take them home and it might be worse than before, or that they have nowhere to go? they are enabling their own situation by staying

thankfully the law and more enlightened people do not agree with you.

[myfriendflicka]

Clementine, you are great.

Disgusting victim blaming on this thread. It makes me too angry and disappointed to respond fully. Try looking at yourself, those responsible. But you are far too smug/misguided to do that, unfortunately.

I am all for naming and shaming the holiday park for their "policy". Do all holiday parks have this policy? Do they have any sort of umbrella organisation that could be approached? I agree with Mrs De Vere re nuances, but it just isn't good enough.

Giving people bad publicity is one way of getting them to look at themselves. It hurts them in the pocket and makes other people think - would you want to go on holiday somewhere, and give them your money, when they do things like this? I wouldn't.

Interesting that there are pages and pages of theorising here - people trying to understand the policy - why?!!!!!

One thing about Mumsnet that could be very positive because you can harness people's collective voice to change things for the better.

The circumstances in which domestic violence flourishes - secrecy, shame, she's "enabling" him (what the fuck!!) it's her fault for staying (!!!!) ....there needs to be an open debate which will educate people and might even get unenlightened companies like this to change their policies.

Oh and by the way, the holiday park could take out a private prosecution against the man who smashed up the caravan, they will have the resources to do this.

I have to go to work now but will return to the thread if i have time later.