Financial abuse or luxury?

[hopingforinsight]

N/c as some posters know my RL identity.

Before we had DC, DH and I both had well paid professional jobs, at about the same level. However, I have now been a sahm for many years whilst DH has significantly progressed his career. My earning power is currently negligible relative to his.

Fast forward to now: DH likes to know what I spend, so I pay for everything on a credit card for which DH has the password so he can view the transactions. He keeps a real time spreadsheet of my expenditure split into categories which he looks at most days. There is no way for me to spend without it appearing on the spreadsheet (other than cash, and DH doesn't like me to get out cash).

My credit card bill consists mainly of family expenditure: food, insurance, car costs, DC clothes, holidays, vet bills etc The annual total is in the tens of thousands but it is well within our budget, and has still enabled us to make significant savings for retirement. I generally feel too guilty to spend money directly on myself but that is probably my own perception rather than imposed by DH who often buys me generous presents - he likes to choose my clothes and my jewellery.

DH also has a credit card, the monthly spend coming out of the joint account. I have no way of telling how much of that is business expenditure and how much is personal - it could be 100% business or it could be 100% personal. It does not appear on the spreadsheet. I feel it is up to him what he does with the money he has earned so that doesn't bother me.

Anyway, should I feel uncomfortable that DH has such a close monitoring of my spend, which I find a little infantalising, or is it reasonable of him to want to know where the money is going?

In short, I have no financial privacy, but I'm not sure why I want it.

A friend of mine tells me this is financial abuse .... even though DH has NEVER criticised me for overspending, or attempted to limit the amount.

BTW my DH works such long hours that I hardly see him and we live pretty separate lives so I do feel like a paid housekeeper sometimes and maybe that is the heart of my problem....... (the spreadsheet makes me feel like an employee providing receipts tbh).

Sorry about the long post; to refocus, my question is whether I should be insisting on financial privacy or not? Is this accountability reasonable and normal, or is it a strange way to live? Or am I simply jolly lucky?

[KristinaM]

It's very odd that someone who has a very good income and entertains a lot for business puts his business expenditure onto his personal credit card. Most empoyers woudlnt allow this as it makes the paymenst of expensee and accounting very complex. Most accountants wouldn't like it neither as it makes it too easy to put personal spending through as business.

My Dh travels a lot for business and everything work related goes onto the work Amex card. At the end of a trip he just collects up all his vouchers/receipts and gives them to one of the admin staff who sorts it all out.

Why would someone who earns " a 7 figure sum " like the OPs husband spend his time sorting out businessfrom personal expenditure, receipt ing it all and putting on a spreadsheet ? I'm surprised his clients or his employers are happy to be paying for this nonsense . It's far more likely that in fact the card he refs to is a personal one, and he doesn't wish his wife to see what or who he spends it on

[claudedebussy]

i agree kristinam.

he's hiding something.

[MrsMangoBiscuit]

This probably won't be a popular post, but I'm going to go against the grain here. I can see the controlling aspect of his behaviour, but I can also see how this could be innocent. Which it is would very much depend on how he reacted if you spoke to him about it and told him it made you uncomfortable. If he tried to give excuses, make you feel you were being silly, or minimalise it, then it's very controlling. If he surprised, concerned about it and open to making changes to solve the issue, then I think it's probably innocent.

I say this because in our household I'm the one with the spread sheets, who does the budgets, and monitors DH's (and my own) spending. I have given DH access to see my accounts too, but he never remembers them (even when I set the pass code to HIS birthday! ). As we earn no where near 6 figures, we each have an allowance for personal spending. I do monitor when he's spent money from his personal account, usually because if he's spent it on family stuff I move money back over so his "allowance" isn't affected, exactly the same as I would for me. However, if DH ever said he was uncomfortable about things, we would change them. I do like having control over the finances, but only as a team with DH. Keeping a close eye on what we're spending feels much more secure than just frittering money away without knowing where it went.

[cory]

MrsMango, how can it be innocent when the dh is refusing the OP access to his accounts, when he won't even let her buy a dress for herself without belittling her taste, when she has already broached the question of a password to the computer and he has refused, when he won't let her take a job because it would impinge on his life?

Everything she has told us about this relationship shows that it is not a normal, adult, equal, budget-keeping, spreadsheet-managing relationship but something far more sinister: a situation where the OP is constantly made to feel that she is not equal, that she is not an adult, that her dh has to look after her and make her decisions for her.

[KristinaM]

Im also confused by the posters suggesting that she goes out and gets a job. She already has a job, she looks aftre the children and does all the runnig of the household. Their household income is nearly £1,000,000 a year. The ( money ) problem isn't that they don't have enough money, its the unequal distribution of that money between them. She needs to get her share for her labour, not get another job on top.

It seems to me that the money problem is just a symptom of the much larger control problem. He has a lot of the money and complete control and privacy, she has much less and has to account for where every penny goes. She doesn't even have a switch card, a bank account she can control or internet access that he doesn't control . He doesnt like her to have cash!!! He chooses all her clothes. In theory she is allowed to buy her own but in Reality he criticises all her purchases. This isn't about spreadsheets, it's about abuse.

[Wuldric]

It's very odd that someone who has a very good income and entertains a lot for business puts his business expenditure onto his personal credit card.

This is very true. You mention that your DH is in a well-paid professional job - so I am imagining someone like a partner in a magic circle law firm or one of the big 4 accountancy firms. These insist on corporate AMEX cards being used for business expenses. Not just for ease of management and monitoring but also because AMEX gives those firms large kickbacks for making it compulsory to use their card.

[cory]

Agree with Kristina. If she were to go out and get a job it wouldn't really change anything unless her knob of a husband the dynamics of the relationship changes: he would only make her kill herself coping with the housework and children on top of the job; in fact, she told us that has happened once already.

[Potteresque97]

The job thing came up as op mentioned recently trying to get one to work, from op's posts it seems clear her self esteem is pretty low and being able to earn your own money even though not £££££££ can help, although agree a properly supportive DH would help her effort by getting a cleaner/childcare so the op isn't just doing more and that needs to be in place.

[NotGoodNotBad]

Your DH works long hours, but finds the time to examine your spending, split into categories, most days? Doesn't let you see what he is spending. Controls what you wear. Belittles your choices.

Way too controlling and untrusting. You are an adult. I was going to say, you are not a small child, but I wouldn't belittle a small child's choices.

You say he doesn't criticise your spending, or attempt to limit it, so what on earth is the deal with the spreadsheets?

[MrsMangoBiscuit]

cory, I'm happy to be corrected but I can't see where the OP has said she's already asked for access to the accounts. I am full of cold, so I admit I could have missed it. As for the clothes thing, my DH will tell me if something I buy doesn't suit me. I love dragging him out clothes shopping as he does have good taste for clothes that suit me. I don't feel belittled by it, if I did I would say so and DH would be apologetic. If the OP can't tell her DH that he's hurting her feelings and expect a positive change, then yes, that's a problem. However she hasn't said that they've had that converatsion. It might be that he thinks it's some kind of inside joke. I'm not saying that's definitely how it is, but it's possible.

I also can't see where the OP has said that her DH won't let her work, just this;

" Yes, I would love a part time job but don't feel I can justify the disruption to the household"

That's the OPs choice.

As for the computer password thing, it sounds like the OP asked to password protect a section that is already storing shared files. If I added a p/w to my computer it would probably cause problems for DH as we share quite a bit on here.

If the OP is feeling disrespected then I think she needs to talk to her DH first and foremost. If it is a equal, honest adult relationship, then he should want to changes things so that the OP is happier. If he openly acknowledges her concerns, then good! If not, then yes, it is definitely more sinisiter. I'm just saying that I can see how there could be another side to this.

[NotGoodNotBad]

Oh, and passwords? I trust my DH completely, but he doesn't know any of my passwords and I don't know his. We don't need each other's passwords because we trust each other.

[apatchylass]

There's also the issue of lack of cash. Lack of cash is deeply controlling. DH had me on this one. My only cash for about five years was Child Benefit. I used to marvel at the other mothers who said they put CB away into a savings account for their DC. I wondered how on earth they paid for a coffee or soft play, or a bus fare to buy groceries. DH repeatedly 'forgot' to put any money in my account for months at a time, so it became embarrassing to ask.
In his eyes, I had access to anything I wanted, because i had a second credit card (that he kept tabs on) but I had a very restricted life. Some weeks other mothers would go for a coffee at a cafe and i couldn't join them.

Like MrsMango, I'd argue that it could be innocent. There was a part of DH who was controlling me but only because he was scared of losing me. once I really started standing up to him, he backed down, rather than lose me.

OP so much depends on his reaction when you argue a case for parity in your relationship. Equality. you having access to a similar level of adult privacy that he enjoys. If not, why not. Take it from there. It doesn't have to be LTB and women's refuge. But do definitely confront him.

[apatchylass]

Kristina those of us who suggest she gets a job are doing so because she isn't fulfilled as a sahm, and lives this way because her husband has decreed it. She used to have a superb job. She has an academic brain, and her DH is treating her like a barefoot skivvy.

To help her overcome this, we are suggesting she gets outside of the home, gets to see herself in a different context, where she is valued and where she is rewarded financially for her contribution, and has full control over that finance.

Whatever happens in her marriage, being a sahm isn't going to help tip the balance of power and self-seteem in her favour if you reread her posts.

[Potteresque97]

I don't think op would have been posting if something wasn't wrong deep down. Whilst its not entirely clear whether DH is a monster or just a bit of a career minded control freak she needs to stand up to, it's clear many things need to change for op.

[MysteriousHamster]

Hope you're okay, OP. Is this 'buy a computer' day.

Does your husband realise he only earns so much because you have enabled him by being their for your children? He does not have an automatic right to delegate everything related to his children to you. If you work, their childcare should come out of his wages as well as yours (I know it's hard to view it like that if you would otherwise be making a loss) - give it time and you could be earning more quite soon.

You need some personal spending money.

Can you do the supermarket shop somewhere cheaper and get money out on cashback? You could put a little aside that way without him knowing, though you shouldn't have to.

[MrsMangoBiscuit]

"OP so much depends on his reaction when you argue a case for parity in your relationship. Equality. you having access to a similar level of adult privacy that he enjoys. If not, why not. Take it from there. It doesn't have to be LTB and women's refuge. But do definitely confront him."

This! Thank you apatchylass, that's what I was trying to say, but much more concise.

[DHtotalnob]

Apologies if this has already been mentioned, but

If I asked to see his CC bill I think he would be very cross indeed - he would say it was his work card (it is) but I know he puts personal expenditure on it too as he uses it when we go for meals out.

This is very likely to mean he is treating you as a business expense and reclaiming the cash for your meals out. Aside from the psychology behind that, it's also gross misconduct in most companies. As well as theft, tax evasion etc etc. Often gets swept under the corporate carpet when discovered, tbh, but can also be a perfect excuse to fire someone. And it's embarrassing for anyone to have expenses looked into.

A bit of ammo for your war chest, should you need it? Just sayin'. xx

[DHtotalnob]

X posts!!!!
This is how long it takes me to get anything done......

[AgathaF]

I so hope you have gone and bought your laptop. I suspect if you have then it will cause the biggest of rows - instigated by him.

You really need to stop him having all of this control over you.

Someone mentioned upthread about selling some of your expensive clothes on ebay - that could give you a bit of cash just for you. For goodness sake though, don't let him have access to your ebay or paypal accounts. Keep them for you. Good reason to have your own laptop for that. Consider opening a bank account in just your own name too. He wouldn't need to know about that either.

Also, he says he wants to keep track of spending. He works long hours. Why don't you take over the job of tracking the spending (ya know, kind of as a favour to him ) since you are at home and probably have more spare time. You need to claw back some control over your own life.

Long term, I hope you can see that either he needs to radically change, or you need to strongly consider leaving him. His abuse of you is disgusting. Dictating your spending, your clothes, the hours you may work (so that he is not inconvenienced), dismissing your choices (clothes) as poor and unworthy of him. He is not around much anyway, so would you really miss him?

[bringbacksideburns]

I'd feel like his employee not his wife.

If he needs to check on every single one of your expenditures why can't you see his? Surely you can see the unfair inequality there? How much goes on 'entertaining'?

...and as for controlling what you wear. Fuck that! You have your own mind.

You said earlier on in the thread that you don't have much of an 'emotional' relationship anymore and also rarely see him. I think you need to thrash this out once and for all. I hope you have your own bank account and your name is on the mortgage as well as a joint account?
If you stay together i would look into doing some work hours, not for the money as much as for your own independence and self worth.

[bringbacksideburns]

I had a friend who was widowed very suddenly. She did not know the passwords to their joint accounts/savings etc online etc - you need to know these incase something happens.

I also thought - i know someone who was a mistress. She'd filled the vacancy when he married his last mistress. For the past few years he has helped to support her and put her through studies. Even though they are no longer together he gives her the equivalent to a reasonably paid full time job salary every month. Presume the wife is clueless as he is very wealthy and would say he was on business trips, then visit her every few weeks, usually midweek. He has also managed to buy a complete house for a previous mistress to buy her silence and that was undetected by the missus aswell! It must be easy to do if you conduct your finances in a secretive manner and earn a fortune.
You really need to know more about where the money goes OP, it should not be kept from you.

[perfectstorm]

DH isn't especially high earning but he paid the credit card bills without question when I was a SAHM and also paid a regular sum into my own account each month by standing order.

What he is doing is controlling and unacceptable, yes. He should pay you a lump sum each month, and it should be up to you how you manage it. It's treating you as an employee, as you say. The only thing in his defence is if this is his work mindset he may be used to it. The real issue is the imbalance - either you both have expenses the other checks off on via shared spreadsheets, or neither do.

I'd talk about how it makes you feel, and that you want it to stop. You want to be paid a regular sum which you can then control. Try to communicate. It may just be that he's never stopped to think about it from your side.

Get that computer (maybe a tablet? iPads are nice and portable) and definitely look into a job. You may not earn much at the beginning but as your experience increases that will change, and it will also increase your self esteem... and shift the balance of power in the relationship, too. Sad to say it, but many men disrespect SAHW and M. My own needed sharp reminders that I was working bloody hard, and had not been lobotomised by the role change.

[Snazzynewyear]

Definitely get yourself a laptop or tablet - his reaction to this is the litmus test. Bet he asks you for the password. If he does - and this is important - DO NOT tell him. Either say 'I'll tell you mine if you tell me yours', or if you don't feel brave enough for that, tell him a dummy password that isn't the real one (you can always say you 'got confused'). If you do (b) and he comes back to you and says 'that wasn't the password' you have even more serious questions to ask yourself - and him - about why he is so set on you having no privacy or personal space whatsoever when he gets to have plenty himself.

Also wondering: do you get to go out much? You said he works long hours so does that mean you have to stay in every night with the kids, or get a babysitter (and how does he feel about that)?

[TyrannosaurusBex]

I'm wondering if the OP's husband may be paranoid about her having an affair herself? Scrutinising her spending, not allowing her cash, denying her privacy, undermining her confidence, keeping her tied to the house by insisting that she must retain responsibility for it even if she were to get a job, dressing her in a manner he deems appropriate...hmmmm...

[hopingforinsight]

Thank you everyone for the helpful replies. I have taken on board the reactions.

I think DH is merely trying to keep an eye on finances, and is not being abusive, but as I have begun to find it stifling, and as I don't want matters to slide further and our current arrangement sounds odd to many, I am going to suggest we each have a private "personal spending" account with a certain amount of money going into it each month....I will ask to keep my own password and suggest DH regards the money as "spent" when it goes into my account (someone suggested that they did that and it worked). Then I can buy that computer and also put some money aside for other things I may want to do with it (eg presents for DH and the DC). If he has a problem with that then it will ring alarm bells and I will deal with it.

The root of my problems, I feel, is that I regard our income as DH's money and not joint. I think that attitude is mainly mine and not his and I need to change. Gosh, even saying that sounds unreasonable but I am accepting that DH works because he gets lots of affirmation from it so if I take the downside (his absence) then perhaps I should not feel guilty about the upside (being a SAHM with disposable cash). My life is fine really! (Honestly) And I do feel myself to be lucky, I have no financial worries, lovely DC, and wonderful friends.

happygoluckyinoz probably gets it right although other posters' reactions have been a slight heads up and vindicate my original friend who highlighted this issue.