Estranged Toxic Mother and the Family Fallout

[OPGangnamStyle]

Hi, Wise Ones!

I would really value some input on my situation please. I am actually in a really good place, but would like some insight re my brother's behaviour. I also think I just need to get it all out.

This is going to be looooooong.
I shall try and be as succinct as possible, whilst imparting what I think is relevant information.

Background.
My father left the family home when I was 12, and my brothers were 10 and 7. My mother raised us as a single parent, my father barely saw us, and when I reached adulthood, I officially cut ties with him as I felt he wasn't that bothered about any of us. Haven't seen or heard from him since I was 21. I am now nearly 40.
My mother did her best, struggled financially. I know she had a lot on her plate, and no help. All of her siblings live on the other side of the planet, and her parents were dead before I was born. The only tangible family I had were her and my two brothers.
She has always been opinionated, bossy, critical, grade A never enough; why didn't you get A+, her way or the highway, stubborn, strict, overbearing. I don't think she managed well when we hit adulthood and had our own opinions.
We all muddled along ok for the next 20 years, didn't all see loads of each other (her, my brothers, me): this seemed to suit us all, as we all lead independent lives, and I don't think we have much in common.

More recent times!
I get married, we have a son, born autumn 2010 (first and currently only grandchild). Straight away the opinions come in, I should do this, do that, that's not how it's done. We used to do this in the seventies, times have changed, mother, I tell her that current research supports this or that, HV is happy with newborn and development etc, he is thriving, happy, thanks for your opinion, please feel free to offer me advice once, but if we (husband and I) say we are doing it another way, you drop it. We aren't going to change our minds just because you go on and on about it. You don't have any say in how he is raised. But she couldn't ever stop, and I felt undermined, belittled, nagged, stressed. When our son was 13 months old, I felt he was really starting to understand that I was being undermined, criticised, and I didn't feel this was a healthy environment for any of us, so I said more firmly to her, that she had to stop. She said no, she could say what she liked, regardless of my feelings (if you recognise this, yes, I did post about it on here at the time, and was told by most of the people replying that she was toxic and I was being reasonable to distance myself: indeed, I should, for the benefit of my child). I was so stressed, her visits sapped my joy and my strength, and I'd had enough. She stopped visiting, yippee.
A few months later, my husband got a new job and we moved a 90min flight away. I feel relieved. I feel like a weight has been lifted.

A poster on my original thread warned me to watch out for the family fallout. Well, here it is. My brothers have only recently been made fully aware of the situation.

Autumn 2012, six months after we moved away, my brother sends a group email to me, my mother and other brother. Just general chat, nothing great. I reply to both brothers, cutting my mother out of the CC field, as I do not correspond with her any more. My brother demands that I reply all in future, and I say no, his mother and I aren't speaking. Both brothers push to know why. I don't feel it is fair to colour their judgement of my mother, so say it is between her and me. They get some info from her, obviously, so I give my version, pretty much as spelled out above. They don't get it at all, and tell me I must let her into my life, she should be able to say whatever she wants, she is our mother. I say no, I don't need the stress, thanks, and I am very happy with how things are.
My younger brother emails me to tell me he thinks I am pathetic and cruel, that when he has children he'd love our mother's input oh how I chortled at that and blocks me on Fb. I don't see why he felt the need to take sides, our relationships are separate, in my mind.

Xmas 2012 my eldest brother sends my husband the following email. I will change the names to protect our identities, and rather than DS, DB, DH etc, I'll give us names as with it being from my brother, I think it will get confusing.

I will be Opal (OP for short!).
My husband is Harry.
My son is Stan.
My friend is Felicity.
Eldest bro is Brian.

I'll do it in the next post, as this is already long, and I think it will make it clearer. I would like some insight please into what my brother is on, basically! I don't feel any great need to respond to him (the email was to my husband, he didn't reply). I feel he does not enhance my life, and is no great loss. In the 18 months of my son's life, before we moved further away with my husband's job, when we lived a 30 minute drive from this brother, we saw him maybe three times. So, really, no great loss.
My younger brother was CCed in on the email to my husband, replied all just basically saying he agreed with the other brother.

Today I get an email from him, CCed to other brother and mother, all breezy, hi, how's everyone, just checking in! Like nothing had happened, and he wants a reply, despite sending that email at Xmas to my husband. I think I should just ignore him, draw a line under my family, and focus on my lovely husband and son. Or should I reply?

Thanks so much if you have read to the end!!! Ach, it was good to get it out anyway.

[Januarymadness]

sorry about typos. Posting from phone.

[YellowAndGreenAndRedAndBlue]

This is how toxic families work, in many cases. For the queen bee to get away with their toxic behaviour they need supporters, and your brother is playing his part taking mum's side without even talking to you.

There are many possible reasons your brother is attacking you now. Maybe your mother is now turning her criticism on him and he wants you back in your place as the family scapegoat!

Just reply 'this is between me and mum, you only know one side of the story, please keep out of it' and do not engage with any other questions or issues. Do not explain about friends & cousins knowing etc or the presents or whatever. Just ignore.

Sorry it is so hard, glad to hear your own family is happy & your DH supportive.

[Muminwestlondon]

OP - what a patronising idiot your brother is - he writes to your husband accusing YOU of mental illness, being a fucking salesman (no offence to salespeople) is no qualification for a diagnosis.

I have a toxic mother who I haven't seen for two years after I broke off contact with her. My sister lives overseas and is still in contact. We are though united in our opinions of our mother.

My grandmother was also toxic and used "divide and rule" tactics on her three daughters. They are in their seventies and still argue and fight.

I think your husband should respond with a short factual email saying that you don't want contact with your mother for reasons well known to her but that doesn't extend to other family members.

Good luck and stay strong!

[CleopatrasAsp]

With toxics, any reaction fuels the fire. No reaction is the way to go - you can't reason with them, they have a vested interest in believing you to be wrong, just ignore.

[LimeLeafLizard]

As I managed to make it to the end I thought I'd post a quick message of support to say I agree with the general sentiment of other posters. Your Bro is an arrogant dickhead and is totally out of order to email your DH like this. He has only heard your Mum's poison and isn't interested in hearing your side of the story. There isn't anything you can do to change either of them, ignoring is the best approach. Thank goodness you are physically a good distance from them.

[Januarymadness]

oh and my pil are toxic, to say the least. we maintain very very basic contact as dh is not ready lose contact with other people as the inevitable consequesnce. So I do have some experience

[LimeLeafLizard]

PS are either of your brothers married? I am betting we'll get a few MIL threads on here about your Mum!

[Miggsie]

Your brother and mother are on a power trip - and nothing will ever EVER be their fault.
They will always blame others - you are the convenient person to attack as, being family, you may feel obligated to be nice to them.

With a dynamic like this all you can do is ignore them, anything you do or say will be twisted by them as more "proof" of you being wrong.

Ironically, I would say your brother is "projecting" onto you-a nice pyschological term there!!! He accuses you of all the things HE is - he is actually the one who is round the twist (a non pyschological term) - but he accuses you.
This is a classic tactic in toxic families - somone gets picked to take all the blame. Once they realise you are not taking their crap they will up the level of manipulation and pressure, if you still don't take the blame they will bad mouth you to everyone they know. It is a standard pattern in these cases. My grandmother was the same - you are either her acolyte and slave or you are the hated outcast, there is no in between. Your brother seems to also have high power needs and to be seen as the important and all-wise one - an arogant prat, in other words. He is also trying to turn your DH against you - anohter classic tactic, to pressure you from all sides. He has misjudged though, as again, he will assume your DH is also a sexist pig who bullies his wife - becuase he does it, he will assume others have the same value system.

They will add nothing to your life. Read the "toxic parents" book and get on with your life spendng time iwth people who actually like you and who do not have personality disorders.

[DontmindifIdo]

Yes if your brother didn't notice for a whole year that you'd cut out your mother, then that suggests he doesn't spend much time with you and her at all. He wants to you to look after 'D'M so he doesn't have to do it

He will be expecting a reaction to his message, and while it's tempting to give him a piece of your mind or your side of the argument, that just gives the impression he has a right to be involved in brokering the relationship between you and your mother and opens a dialogue about it in which you give him more 'entitlement' to comment and discuss.

I'd simply get your DH to reply, CCing you (so it's clear he's shared the e-mail with you) "Brother, thank you for your thoughts, however we are perfectly happy that our actions are in the best interests of our family. If you would like to visit and see [Stan] do let me or Opel know. Kind regards, DH."

[Crocodilio]

I think he's got some good points. If you want to maintain a relationship with your brothers, why not suggest that you three all meet up to talk, and each explain your point of view. You can say that you struggled with your mother when your son was a baby, and so find it easier not to see her at the moment, but that won't necessarily always be the case. You can acknowledge that you were probably in the wrong re the gifts. And you can listen, and share, and bond. Don't lose your relationship, and your son's relationship, with your brothers. Does it need to be so black and white?

[LtEveDallas]

If I was OP's DH I'd email back:

"Why are you sending emails to Opal? I did as you instructed and took her in hand. I put my foot down and forced her to see the error of her ways.

The doctors say she will hopefully be released once she realises that everything is always her fault, your mother is completely blameless, you are not a pompous arse and that any other point of view is not worth listening to"

[Googol]

Don't reply. Don't engage with either of them.

Your brother's letter is nasty and malicious. I did snort at his assertion that as he is in sales and has dabbled in psychology that he knows what he's talking about ie his opinion is far more important than yours. If he was so concerned about you why is he not trying to support you to get help? Instead he wants to cruficy your reputation and your relationship with your husband.

Any reply will be dissected, trivialised and turned on you, your agruments are "null and void" remember. There is no way they will hear what you say. You are the scapegoat and you always will be to them.

He's also told your husband that he is going to talk to the people who know and like you. This is a slander campaign. If you haven't already I would speak your cousins and friends to make them aware of what your brother is going to do.

And to say that you will harm your son is disgusting.

Protect yourself and ignore, ignore, ignore.

[DumSpiroSpero]

Your brother is a massive wanker!

Regardless of any other goings on I cannot believe he has emailed your DH to ask him to 'deal with you' as if you were a 1940's Stepford housewife.

I think the only possible response to him is 'F*ck off and good riddance' tbh.

[HotDAMNlifeisgood]

I wouldn't be too worried about his threats to slander you either, by the way: people will think of it what they choose to think of it. Chances are, many or most will think "Who is this wanker telling me what I should think about OP?" or "Huh, I've met OP's mother, and I am not at all surprised that OP's relationship with her is strained."

Let him say what he will - you can't stop him anyway. And let your friends and relatives think of it what they will - you can't control that either. Just focus on remaining true to yourself, and doing what you feel is right for your family.

And definitely just ignore his email. It's the only thing to do (and, also, the best weapon against pompous arrogance: don't feed it with a reply)

[FlouncingMintyy]

God what a sad situation.

Have you considered the possibility that you might be as toxic as your mother?

[RambleOn]

Gosh. I'm going against the majority view here. How is your mother toxic exactly for buying her grandchild clothes? She's probably not wealthy either, having raised three kids as a single parent. Give her a break. You only have one mother.

[OPGangnamStyle]

Thank you all so much for your replies. Most are making me smile, so thank you. I will reply more thoroughly later; toddler DS is keeping me busy right now and I had better dash off this reply before you all think I've disappeared.

Minty, does it sound like I am toxic? If so, in which ways?

Just a quick response about the gifts, I didn't return all of them, just ones that would have gone to waste. She hates waste! I really thought she'd like to regift them, and this was at a stage before things had become very strained anyway.
Ramble, she is perfectly comfortable, but I didn't say the buying of baby clothes was toxic, it's all the other stuff she does and says and is.

[OPGangnamStyle]

Letter-writing brother was not in a relationship last I heard, but we have not kept in touch, so I don't know.
Younger bro has a girlfriend of a few months, so I learned on Fb, before he blocked me.

[VivaLeBeaver]

OP - what does your DH think about the situation?

[OPGangnamStyle]

Viva, DH is sad that there is strife - his family are lovely and normal - he is not used to it. But he sees how my mother undermines me (us - they are his decisions too, but obviously she directed her comments at me) and saw how utterly demoralised she made me. He would like peace, but knows it's not going to happen with my family as they are. He is supportive of me.

[Oopla]

It's so peculiar the choice of words he's used in his email. He uses 'shame' and 'embarrassment' more than once.

The silence will do his and her nut in I agree

[badtasteflump]

OPGangnam as much as your fingers must be itching to fire back a response to your B - don't do it. You know that your brothers and mother are toxic and you are (sadly) better off without them. Therefore their opinions don't matter to you anymore. And and response from you or your DH will just mean they have a reason to come right back at you.

So ignore, ignore, ignore. And that goes for any communication from them in the future. Block their email addresses, change phone numbers, do anything you need to make them disappear (from your lives, that is). You already know that you don't want them in your lives, so hold your head high and move forward without them (or their opinions)

[badtasteflump]

Sorry meant 'and any response....'

[Pendipidy]

Maybe you should comment, if it is so bad to block a family member, and not have anything to do with them, then why brother, are you doing that to me?!

[HotDAMNlifeisgood]

Shame and embarrassment are what narcissistic people fear above all else, Oogla.