"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheMomeRaths]

Thread opener here: //webaunty.co.uk/mumsnet/
You may need to right-click and 'unblock' it after downloading it.

It's January 2013, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012

Please check later posts in this thread for links & quotes. The main thing is: "they did do it to you" - and you can recover.

<br />
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.<br />
<br />
This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see <a class="break-all" href="http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/440839-but-we-took-you-to-stately-homes-a-thread-for" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">original thread here</a> (December 2007)<br />
<br />
So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.<br />
<br />
One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;<br />
<br />
'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/angry/hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/lifetime experiences of being hurt/angry etc by our parents? behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'<br />
<br />
Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's. <br />
<br />
Some on here have been emotionally abused and/or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn?t have to be any) they fall into.<br />
<br />
NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/or current parental contact has left you feeling damaged falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth. <br />
<br />
You might also find the following links and information useful if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.<br />
<br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0553814826/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0553814826&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.</a><br />
<br />
I started with this book and found it really useful.<br />
<br />
Here are some excerpts:<br />
<br />
"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect you feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defenses that they have always used, only more so.<br />
<br />
Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.<br />
<br />
Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:<br />
<br />
"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety will undoubtedly us it during confrontation to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.<br />
<br />
YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".<br />
<br />
"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behavior. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offenses against them.<br />
<br />
YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me when I was a child".<br />
<br />
"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.<br />
<br />
YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me to make a better relationship."<br />
<br />
"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties without invalidating your own.<br />
<br />
YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"<br />
<br />
"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behavior. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get," or "nothing was ever enough for you."<br />
<br />
YOUR RESPONSE: I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ....<br />
<br />
"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realize that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.<br />
<br />
YOUR RESPONSE: I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."<br />
<br />
Helpful Websites<br />
<br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.alice-miller.com/index_en.php" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">Alice Miller</a><br />
<br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_disorder" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">Personality Disorders definition</a><br />
<br />
Follow up to pages first thread:<br />
<br />
I?m sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don?t claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support.<br />
<br />
Happy Posting (smithfield posting as therealsmithfield)<br />
<br />
I have cut and pasted this because I think it is fab. Just in case anyone misses the link.<br />
<br />
More helpful links:<br />
<br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">Daughters of narcissistic mothers</a><br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://outofthefog.net/" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">Out of the FOG</a><br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.vachss.com/av_dispatches/disp_9408_a.html" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">You carry the cure in your own heart</a><br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.havoca.org/HAVOCA_home.htm" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">Help for adult children of child abuse</a><br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.pete-walker.com/" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">Pete Walker</a><br />
<br />
Some books:<br />
<br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0749910542/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0749910542&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">Homecoming</a><br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1439129436/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1439129436&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">Will I ever be good enough?</a><br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0060929324/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0060929324&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">If you had controlling parents</a><br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0385304234/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0385304234&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">When you and your mother can't be friends</a><br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1572245611/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1572245611&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">Children of the self-absorbed</a><br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0671701355/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0671701355&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">Recovery of your inner child</a>

[ifso]

and for the Narc of course, it was essential in maintaining the image of perfection/perfect tidy home = wonderful perfect person

this in essence is the whole purpose of living for a Natc - how they are perceived by others is crucial to their being, often to the detriment of their children. It really baffles me though.

[dontfeedthetroll]

forget

[dontfeedthetroll]

ifso OMG, can identify with frustrated and depressed. I really don't want to take drugs though, I was having body psychotherapy before I moved here and it was really helpful.

[forgetmenots]

Haha dontfeedthetroll, as my Californian friend would say, 'I know, RIGHT?'

I can laugh about it now but at the time it was a genuinely bewildering moment!

[pumpkinsweetieMasPudding]

Do you mnetters of Toxic parents ever find yourself spending lots of money on material things you don't need for that short-term 'fix' you get from shopping??
I ask this as i'm started to realise the reasons behind dhs past spending habit problems ( we were in a lot of debt due to him buying things) which has luckily been paid off, but my dh admited to me tonight he feels as though he slipping back into 'wanting' things again. I find it odd that each time there is an outburst or to-do with ils he insists he needs all this expensive stuff ie: ipads, ipods, tvs, gadgets etc.

I think he uses the 'thrill' of buying things as a way to get through it iyswim. Problem is, it's short lived & doesn't really make him happy in the long run, not to mention are finances don't afford it.

I'm worried that he seems to be reverting back, its almost like he wants a second childhood

I find it hard, because a: i don't wants us spiraling into debt again & b: the long & short of it, it won't make him happy, although when he is buying items, for that split second he's happy.

It all affects people in different ways, but this was one thing i was hoping wasn't regressing
My toxic inlaws through their behaviour have caused so many problems in our relationship, its unbelievable.
I really do hate the pil for what life they gave him

[forgetmenots]

Pumpkin my DH is the opposite. He won't buy anything for himself. PILs were decent with anything financial or material when he was growing up, but gifts or anything like that came at a price. So, he seems to be a bit unaware that now there aren't strings attached to treating himself.

It took me a while to figure this one out, but when I bought him a gift for his birthday (a special one, so I saved for ages), I think the third thing out of his mouth after 'wow' and 'thank you' was 'I'll do all your ironing' which I thought was funny, but he genuinely thought he owed me something. :(

he does still do lots of ironing, though

[dontfeedthetroll]

pumpkin oh yes and I believe you have nailed why. I think it's something similar to a sort of nesting thing. It seems to me closely related to hoarding. I do it too and he likely already knows it's a 'fix' because it only feels a momentary rush usually followed by a slump so you need another 'fix' and all the while knowing you don't want or need this stuff and even it won't work. A kind of expensive interpretation of a blankie.

Since he agrees with you about not amassing more debt I wonder (I've never tried this) but what if there was a limit on what he could spend and he put the rest in your keeping? I don't know, that likely won't be a long term thing, it's not at all material for me, it's something much, much deeper and infinitely more primal. It's not the stuff, it's not the money, something else.

Not much help but yes, I understand. Totally get it.

[Emandlu]

I'm the opposite too, more like dontfeedthetroll's husband. I once caught myself deliberating over whether I could justify spending £1.50 on a mug for myself. I was stood looking at these mugs in Asda for about 20 minutes while I dithered and worried about spending money on myself.

I am always amazed when people buy me presents. I was moved to tears (and still cry thinking about it) when dh did me a Christmas stocking one year that wasn't full of tat, but had stuff in I actually wanted. It's stupid, but

[pumpkinsweetieMasPudding]

I tried giving him a limit last time, but he kept on continuesly for more & more until he amounted £4000 in debt.
It's hard to stop him once he has started, he buys one thing, gets bored within a few days & then wants more, its a visious cycle that repeats itself.
I've tried agreeing on cheaper things, but that doesn't give him the 'fix' he needs iyswim.

Between 2010-2012 he has had every type of ds & psp you can think off but he hardly plays on them. They are just stacked up with all the other things he has collected

We were supposed to be off to buy our dd a phone for her bday tomorrow, but dh has more or less told me if he enters the shop he will want a new phone too

I keep on at him to get counselling, but he isn't listening. He needs to look at the big picture as to why he behaves like this instead of throwing money at it iyswim.
His parents are the root of all his problems and i'm hoping he realises this soon as he cannot go on letting them get to him.
I don't think the constant harrasment between sil, mil & aunt around xmas has helped...

[pumpkinsweetieMasPudding]

And dontfeedthetroll, i think the 'comfortblanket' explanation is spot on. He sees these items as a protective barrier to the real problems he faces

[hoppyscotch]

Thanks!
I'm agree that sending it back would be the only way to finally stop it - probably. It does give her the "last word" though, in a way. Not sending it, however, would rob her of that and that would feel rather good!

I wasn't here yesterday because she had done something else to rile me (less than the will thing, but it piled up) so I emailed saying exactly what I thought. Two hours later I got an email back starting (I kid you not), "It doesn't seem to matter what I do or how hard I try to make an effective communication with you or to be of some help, it isn't good enough or helpful." Spot on to the script!!

It made me laugh and decide that there is ZERO point in tackling her about anything else.

[hoppyscotch]

Sorry, meant to say sending it back gives her the last word, because some time in the future, could be in five years time, could be next year, she'll bring up how ungrateful I am etc because I sent it back.

Btw, until I first read this thread and the daughters of narc mothers link, I had NO idea that it wasn't normal (or nice) for parents (mothers in my case) to call their children ungrateful.

And Fresh I'm not using the will as a pretext for NC, I'm only staying very, very minimally in touch with her for the sake of my brother. She's done enough other things to warrant it though.

[3ismylot]

Its funny I had forgotten about the cleaning thing but you have all reminded me about it and I have been nodding through all your posts as I remember it too! She is still the same now but has given up trying to clean my home thank goodness!

I got another email yesterday saying she felt sorry for me and that she had a lot of shit to deal with in the past but she just got on with it. She also couldnt believe that I had said I wasnt jealous of my Brother and that I hated him instead and she obviously didnt know the "real" me!

So I flipped and told her that I knew she had a lot of shit to deal with as I was the one who always had to pick up the pieces! I also told her that the reason I hate my brother is because he used to abuse me and that I wasnt going to hold onto the family guilt anymore.

DH and I were talking and taking bets on the reply (gotta laugh or I will cry!) I will either be accused of lying or she will somehow find a way of minimising his actions and blaming me!

I am completely ready for NC now though and I am so thankful for this thread for pointing me to the right resources so that I can understand that the problem is hers and that I can let go of all this guilt.
Have a docs appointment next week and want to come off my ADs and have a some more counselling to help.

[financialwizard]

Just reading through the last few posts shocks me. My Mum also used to do the 'white glove test'. Not so much now because my husband would go nuts and she would not want to upset him.

The buying of things - I am also of the 'don't buy anything for myself' group because everything my Mother has ever given me always came with an unpleasant condition.

I had to speak to her yesterday, unfortunately, and she said that we didn't get along because 'you are too much like your father'. Although he has enabled her behaviour I actually feel a bit sorry for him because she is a complete bitch to him too. Everything her way or he also gets the long silent sulks. It is my Dad that is stopping me going completely NC at the moment but tbh I am unsure how much longer I can cope with her. Even my 11 year old son is asking me why I put up with it. That has got to be a bad sign.

[NewPatchesForOld]

My kids have asked me that too...in fact they hate it when she's coming for a visit because it stresses the whole household. She likes to think that she is this big matriarchal figure, and that the gc adore her but the truth is they don't. She makes life too complicated for them.

I remember on her last memorable visit when she ruined my birthday, we were all eating dinner and DP turned up late, so I dished his up and he sat down at the table to join us. M got up and started washing up, even though we were all still eating. She waited til DP had just finished and sat down at the table again, just as he got up (we had all finished then). Then DS got up to go to the other room as he had been waiting for this particular programme to come on. She waited til there was silence and then said at the top of her voice 'What's wrong? Do I smell or something? As soon as I sit down everyone fecking leaves'. She had been the one to leave the table while everyone was still eating!!!
When I know she's coming up I go on a mad cleaning spree...the kids hate it, they say I am like a woman possessed! But the truth of the matter is, no matter how clean the house is she will always find fault and clean it again. No word of a lie, if someone is drinking tea and they go to put the cup down she will take it from them before it's hit the table, even if it's still got tea in it! It's washed up before you even realise it's gone.

It's no coincidence that she does not speak to ANY of her siblings...some have died without her having made peace with them, and the others have NC at all with her. One of her sisters lives at the other end of the same road but they haven't seen each other for years. Another brother (who was my favourite uncle) lives about 3 miles away and they too haven't spoken for years (but they all stay in touch with each other) and I recently found him on facebook. I told my mum and she 'forbade' me from contacting him!

Was anyone else not allowed friends in the house when they were small?

[3ismylot]

wow this thread really makes you realise things that werent right in childhood!

Newpatches My Mum only has contact with one out of 4 siblings and that is pretty much once a year contact, I remember my Nan's funeral where my Mum used the eulogy to have a go at her siblings for the lack of help they gave after my Nan's stroke (although she actually loved it as she could play the martyr some more) and then proceeded to pull out Nan's self written will at the wake to hurt her Brother as he had been left nothing!s a child but did feel uncomfortable having them there as she would always embarrass me or put me down in front of them

I wasnt exactly banned from having friends round a

[3ismylot]

sorry try that again!

wow this thread really makes you realise things that werent right in childhood!

Newpatches My Mum only has contact with one out of 4 siblings and that is pretty much once a year contact, I remember my Nan's funeral where my Mum used the eulogy to have a go at her siblings for the lack of help they gave after my Nan's stroke (although she actually loved it as she could play the martyr some more) and then proceeded to pull out Nan's self written will at the wake to hurt her Brother as he had been left nothing!

I wasnt exactly banned from having friends round as a child but did feel uncomfortable having them there as she would always embarrass me or put me down in front of them

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Hi UA

If you have not already looked at this website I would suggest you call this organisation asap, have linked them below.

//www.napac.org.uk

It was not your fault this happened to you.

Your mother and stepfather utterly failed you; like some women she put her man before her child for her own selfish reasons. She was complicit in the abuse of you.

[NewPatchesForOld]

I was never allowed friends around. Never had a birthday party, never had sleepovers and was never allowed to sleepover at friends' houses either. I can remember once when I was small a friend came to play; we were only allowed in the garden and this friend wanted to go to the loo. My mum wouldn't let her in the house for the toilet and made her go all the way home - the other end of a long street! We were only about 7, if that. She never came back to play after that.
Even as a teenager it was weird. I used to date a guy from work and he would give me a lift home after work. One day we were sitting in the car outside the house, and he had his arm along the back of my seat and were chatting and laughing...next thing I heard the window catch rattling...I ignored it and it got louder. I looked over and my mother was furious, at the window, banging on it and rattling it to make me come in. I ignored it again and she opened it and yelled at me to come in NOW. I was 19 at the time. And mortified.

Another time, when I was about 13, my best friend was a black guy and we used to walk part way home together and then he would carry on to his house and me to mine. Anyway, one day we were so engrossed in our conversation that we walked all the way to my house together. When we realised we laughed, he got on his bike and cycled off and I went in, only to be greeted with a smack across the face for being seen with a n*er!!!!! What would the neighbours think etc etc. I was beside myself with fury, racism never even entered my head and yet here I was being assaulted for being seen with a black lad.

Jesus, so so so messed up.

Unfortunately...your story is so sad...my DD2 came to me when she was only 3 and told me something, and it never crossed my mind to disbelieve her. Without hesitation I got the police involved. Please take all the help you can get, and never ever take blame or responsibility for it. Your parents failed you, THEY failed, not you.

[ifso]

UA - have you tried any 'grounding' techniques when the flashbacks come? It is something to try - if you google grounding techniques it will offer better explanation. Basically, if you are getting overwhelmed by the memories, like how you can't eat - stop, take 5 deep breaths, close your eyes, picture yourself as a strong tree rooted to the ground. You are in control, that person can never hurt you again. Put your armour on. Stand up striaght and strong to it. You let the memory pass away, float down a stream and out to seam never to return again

using such techniques really helped me deal with horrific flashbacks so seeing my sister get physically attacked by my parents in our home most evenings. I felt powerless then. But I have power now to clear those memories and deal with them now. It has taken much practice of reminding myself that I am doing ok, that my life is going forwards and never backwards to those times.

I wish you well, take it easy today and be kind to yourself. If you can eat little bit of toast and a cup of tea each day for a few days to start with, then gradually build up your appetite? I find taking a long walk by myself once a day really clears my mind and helps my body rest properly at night. I also had to take a small dose of antidepressant too - ask your GP as it really can make such a difference and helped me to move forwards in spite of the bad flashbacks

Hugs

[ifso]

I meant - let the memory float out to sea, not out to seam, sorry

[PrincessFionne]

Hoppy just a quick one... you will never be able to control the nasty stuff she says about you, just stick to making your point, and if you don't want it get rid of it, but sending it back to her will be the only way she'll know you mean it and further attempts will be pointless to give it back. but yes, she will slate you for that and continue to for lots of other stuff, you will never control that. That does seem to be the way of the narc, as she has to tell people continually how hard she tries and she can't do anything right in your eyes, that you are so hard on her, blah blah blah, etc. etc.

[PrincessFionne]

take care UA ((Hugs)) - these flashbacks are a hell of a thing to deal with, and will start off very intense, but will calm down and are a completely 'normal' reaction to the experiences you have had. Good advice given already, have a preaceful and quiet time while you have to process everything but it will change and you will go through the process of cleaning it all out, which is basically what your brain is finally doing for you, let it all wash away and let it out. Keep posting everything you feel you need to on here, there's lot of support for you here and hopefully you will find in other places also. ((more hugs)). Fi

[dontfeedthetroll]

unfortunatelyanxious much empathy. If you are anything like the rest of us the last thing you want right now is chivviing up, I second the napac website and also ifso excellent suggestions of grounding techniques.
A quick one for in the moment is to stampt your feet on the ground, say your name, where you are and tell yourself you are having a flashback and you are not in that situation now. Repeat and repeat. It's hard, unimaginably hard for anyone who hasn't been there.