"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheMomeRaths]

Thread opener here: //webaunty.co.uk/mumsnet/
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It's January 2013, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012

Please check later posts in this thread for links & quotes. The main thing is: "they did do it to you" - and you can recover.

<br />
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.<br />
<br />
This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see <a class="break-all" href="http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/440839-but-we-took-you-to-stately-homes-a-thread-for" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">original thread here</a> (December 2007)<br />
<br />
So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.<br />
<br />
One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;<br />
<br />
'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/angry/hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/lifetime experiences of being hurt/angry etc by our parents? behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'<br />
<br />
Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's. <br />
<br />
Some on here have been emotionally abused and/or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn?t have to be any) they fall into.<br />
<br />
NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/or current parental contact has left you feeling damaged falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth. <br />
<br />
You might also find the following links and information useful if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.<br />
<br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0553814826/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0553814826&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.</a><br />
<br />
I started with this book and found it really useful.<br />
<br />
Here are some excerpts:<br />
<br />
"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect you feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defenses that they have always used, only more so.<br />
<br />
Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.<br />
<br />
Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:<br />
<br />
"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety will undoubtedly us it during confrontation to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.<br />
<br />
YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".<br />
<br />
"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behavior. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offenses against them.<br />
<br />
YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me when I was a child".<br />
<br />
"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.<br />
<br />
YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me to make a better relationship."<br />
<br />
"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties without invalidating your own.<br />
<br />
YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"<br />
<br />
"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behavior. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get," or "nothing was ever enough for you."<br />
<br />
YOUR RESPONSE: I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ....<br />
<br />
"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realize that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.<br />
<br />
YOUR RESPONSE: I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."<br />
<br />
Helpful Websites<br />
<br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.alice-miller.com/index_en.php" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">Alice Miller</a><br />
<br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_disorder" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">Personality Disorders definition</a><br />
<br />
Follow up to pages first thread:<br />
<br />
I?m sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don?t claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support.<br />
<br />
Happy Posting (smithfield posting as therealsmithfield)<br />
<br />
I have cut and pasted this because I think it is fab. Just in case anyone misses the link.<br />
<br />
More helpful links:<br />
<br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">Daughters of narcissistic mothers</a><br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://outofthefog.net/" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">Out of the FOG</a><br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.vachss.com/av_dispatches/disp_9408_a.html" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">You carry the cure in your own heart</a><br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.havoca.org/HAVOCA_home.htm" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">Help for adult children of child abuse</a><br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.pete-walker.com/" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">Pete Walker</a><br />
<br />
Some books:<br />
<br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0749910542/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0749910542&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">Homecoming</a><br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1439129436/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1439129436&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">Will I ever be good enough?</a><br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0060929324/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0060929324&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">If you had controlling parents</a><br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0385304234/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0385304234&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">When you and your mother can't be friends</a><br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1572245611/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1572245611&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">Children of the self-absorbed</a><br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0671701355/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0671701355&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">Recovery of your inner child</a>

[fresh]

Hoppyscotch, I think you've proved beyond doubt that your mum does not accept that you have views which should be respected. The will is a symptom of that so in some ways what you do about the actual document is irrelevant. It's how you react to the fact that you are not heard. Narcissists do not hear other people; she won't change.
I might be wrong, but are you using the will as a final straw to justify going NC? You don't need to justify it to anyone. And trying to explain it to her is pointless. This is one of the circles of madness we're in when dealing with a narc. Going NC is terrifying because we are finally making a decision for ourselves without putting the narc's needs first, and we've learnt from an early age how 'dangerous' this can be. Work on it with yr therapist, putting yourself at the centre of the discussion rather than your Mum. Keep posting, lots of support here.

[3ismylot]

Hi all
I have been doing a lot of reading of this thread and have read the toxic parents book and now know that my Mum is a classic Narc and my Dad is an enabler.
Its hard to describe how they made my childhood so bad but I know that many of you will understand that feeling! I have an older Brother who has always been the golden child even though he was an arsehole to them for most of his childhood, But I dont seem to fit the scapegoat roll Im more just there when they want /need something and forgotten the rest of the time!

I have been finding things really hard the last couple of years and knew that it was all going to come to a head sooner or later and I finally snapped just before Christmas and before I knew it I had sent an email telling them how shit they had made my childhood and that I was sick of my brother being treated so well while I was sidelined (this was before I read the book) so as was to be expected I got a lot of bile back about how I am ungrateful and hurtful and they have always treated us equally and that I am causing them much hurt blah blah blah
I tried to reason with them (shallow laugh!) and gave examples of how differently we were treated but just got back loads more about how I havent got a problem with them its with my brother and that I am jealous and that this is terrible for them etc etc

She then came round christmas eve with gifts for the kids (DH answered the door) and started ranting at him that I am nasty and he is just as bad for allowing me to behave like this! but my behaviour wouldnt stop her giving gifts to her grandchildren and left (Gifts are still wrapped and in the garage) the funny thing is that alot of what kicked the starting arguement off was that she hasnt been bothering with my kids for weeks yet has time for my brothers newborn!

I replied to her email stating my case again in the hope she might actually get it this time (more shallow laughter!) and after 2 weeks finally got a reply this morning basically saying that DH and I have "used" her and "run her ragged" and that I am jealous of my brother and they always did their best for me blah blah blah and if I am adult enough to go over and sort it out we can! she also tried to guilt me for tracing my real mother a few years back (me and bro are adopted and not real bro and sis)

I sent one back that was assertive and a bit sarky (having now read the book) saying that just because she didnt remember it the way I did doesnt mean that it didnt happen and that I have no desire to sort things out until they admit that life wasnt rosy like they say!
And I also told her that she had no right to make me feel guilty for having questions about my real Mother and that if she hadnt of spent my entire life reminding me I was adopted (would introduce me as her adopted daughter to strangers! or if they said we looked a like would say "dont know how she is adopted!") maybe I wouldnt have had those questions that needed answering

My husband also wants me to drop the bombshell that my brother abused me as a child and I think that if I get more bile off them I may!

I am ready to go NC and cant see a way back from this at all so I dont see why I should hold on to the family secrets anymore!

Sorry its so long but I kinda needed to get it off my chest to people who understand how shit these feelings are

[NewPatchesForOld]

Hoppyscotch..I can so relate to your M not listening to your views. This would sound so trivial to anyone but a SHer, but I'm sure you will all understand this.

When growing up the house was like a showhome, not that we had a lot, but it was always pristine, we weren't allowed to lay on the settee only sit up, if we washed up the dishes she would take them all out and do them again etc...If you dropped a crumb on the floor she had caught it before it had hit the floor. When I used to go over with my own DC she would put sheets all over the furniture...chairs, settees etc before she would allow them in the room.

I was determined that I wouldn't be like that, so I have a much more relaxed approach. I am in no means dirty, but my house is comfy and warm and relaxed...it's a home. the kids are relaxed here, not scared to curl up on the settee, or drop something on the floor.

Now comes the not listening part...

When she comes up here, she cleans my house and it infuriates me. I actually feel really insulted. I have fallen out with her while she's been here because she just won't leave MY house alone. For instance, if my mug has a tea stain in it (I drink a lot of tea...a nod to my Irish ancestry!) she will start rummaging through my cupboards for soap powder to soak it in. I hate it when she does that because the cup tastes of soap for weeks. I have told her to leave my cup alone but then as soon as I am out of the room she will do it anyway. She empties my kitchen bin when it's only half full...it costs me a fortune in bin liners. She will take my washing out of the washing machine when I've told her to leave it alone. She will strip my windows of stuff so she can clean the window sills. She'll mop the floor....it goes on and on. Most people say 'oh I'd love my mother to clean for me' but it's not an act of kindness on her part, it's her belief that I am not clean enough for her. Even if I were a slovenly slattern it's MY house and I feel massively insulted that she does not stop. When I have lost my temper with her and shouted at her to please just stop cleaning (she does it constantly) she has told me to get lost!!!

By the time she leaves I am reaching for the bottle...it reduces me to tears. I am just completely unheard as far as she's concerned.

We'll be out shopping and she'll buy kitchen roll..(I tell her I don't use it and don't want it but she buys it anyway), dish cloths (I use sponges), toilet cleaner, bleach (I hate the stuff)...she says it's for her to take home and when I say I know damn well it's not she gets mad that I am accusing her of lying, then puts it all in my cupboards anyway!

I'm getting worked up just typing this.

[NewPatchesForOld]

3ismylot...in a way I am envious of you that you have found the courage to lay it all out there...I still cannot do that. But I am so sorry you are yet another victim of narcissistic parents.

ANother thought/memory that came to mind just then...I can remember as kids we used to have ice on the inside of our bedroom windows, and would breathe vapour when we woke up the house was so cold...and yet my mother had an electric blanket! We didn't. And re the cleaning thing...she only does it in my house, never my brothers.

[ifso]

just wanted to say, newpatches, I am another one with a Narc mother who many many times since I had DC would clean my home obsessively and rearrange things if she got the chance. It is crazy behaviour. Luckily I made it clear about seven times for her to stop - by saying DH's mother doesnt come here and clean the house - and this was the only thing that made her stop.

so bizarre.

and to Hoppyscotch - ignore ignore ignore all the morbid plans for death from your mother - it is difficult, but my enabler father has revealed all his plans for will/burial plots on a daily basis every time I have visited this year. I ignore, say how wonderful, and change the subject. Not easy though, but just think of it as her little silly obsession. awful behaviour though, you have my support.

and - doesnt anyone edit Tanya Byron's column anymore? Totally strange advice to empathise with a narc parent - they dont have any emotional skills, therefore using emotional skills such as empathy simply does not work

[HappyNewHissy]

NewPatches I remember the ice on the inside too! 70s childhood! I was in the extension, 3 external walls, flat roof, no CH. I did have lots of blankets though, so it wasn't part of a bad bit of my life. I agree the leccy blanket issue with your mother and not you was shite. You do have a right to be sad about that.

I wouldn't have been allowed one as I wet the bed til about 9. :(

That cleaning thing is pointed. Are your brothers married? Can you arrange to meet her in a neutral place? I'd not have someone in my house that did that to me.

So I spent the day with Mother yesterday. It went OK, and I didn't talk about the clothes, it'd be too easy for her to wriggle out of.

I did however remind her why I am NC with SisDear, and explained at length that it's unfair of her or her H to pressure me to do anything else. That I could have forgiven SisDear the actual abandonment/plotting/lying etc, but it was the bringing the whole subject up, out of nowhere and telling me that she HAD ignored my plaintive cries for a hand hold, on purpose, and with that smug grin on her face. She did that to wound, there is no other way of looking at it. Believe me I have tried, it's cost HUNDREDS in therapy sessions. I told Mum that it was THAT final lunge of the knife that means that I could never have anything more to do with her.

A Friend would be cut off for less than this. A 'friend' is someone who owes you nothing really. A sibling is someone we need to be able to hold to a higher account. If it's unacceptable for me to cut her off, it's MORE unacceptable for her to have done it in the first place. Therefore such cruelty for whatever reason is WORSE and LESS tolerable than if perpetrated by someone we just know, as opposed to someone with whom we share blood.

I asked Mum what SisDear wanted to achieve by telling me just how mean she was, clearly she has no respect for me, she possibly resents me, hates me or perhaps ponders that I am so weak that she could do this to me, TELL me that she had done it so that there was NO kindness of the benefit of the doubt, and I would just say 'OK' and life would go on as it did before.

How weak was I supposed to be? How much more was I supposedly expected to take? what would come NEXT?

I also pointed out that her H reminding me of my depression in years past, or telling me that I too had done things to SisDear is totally incorrect and that he really does know nothing. I have never, ever done anything to SisDear to hurt her. The only thing I have done is ignore her and refuse to have any contact with her since the full weight of what she did to me hit home. I'm entitled to that withdrawal.

I reminded her that SisDear's actions were hers alone, that for now, i am not blaming her for the decisions of her daughter. I said to her that it's HER actions from now on that she can take responsibility for, her treatment of me from now on that she has power over.

I said that while I am clearly the scapegoat my family's story, I am actually the HERO in mine.

She seemed to get it. I felt better for saying it, even if ultimately it goes nowhere.

[HappyNewHissy]

Hoppy I too say ignore the plans. File them away in the loft or something.

Never mention them to your DM, IF she brings them up, say something vague like, 'Oh vaguely remember seeing something, didn't have time to look at it though'

Or if lots of time passes, completely forget them.

WRT people telling others that they have to stay with people that harm them for whatever reason.

No-one has to stay with anyone for any reason. We have a duty to ourselves first and foremost. Just because someone has a mental illness (and a NARC is not mentally ILL, they are psychologically damaged, there is a MASSIVE difference) doesn't mean that anyone has to put up with it.

I remember getting into a spat on MN with someone who said that they as the female had anger issues in the past, and had made their H and DC life difficult. I had said that anyone with anger issues and taking them out on those they live with, their DW/H and or Kids are not suitable to be with.

She raved at me (kinda proving my point) saying should my H have left me then, I told her YES. he ought to have done, to save himself the damage of her abuse and his DC. I said that had he taken that step, perhaps she would have sought help sooner and it would have been easier to have broken the routine of her abuse. I did however tell her that it was great that she was working on it, and not to give up as she WAS worth more than ranting and hurting others.

There is NO Excuse for inflicting suffering on others, there is NO reason why ANYONE should ever put up with this. Everyone on this earth is worth better than that.

If people treat us like this, we DO have the right to say STOP. WE really do.

They won't stop if we don't insist they do.

Much love and strength to those that need it! ((((liberal hugs))))

[fresh]

Re: Tanya Byron's column - I posted a reply saying the things we all know on here. There have been a couple of very ill-informed responses but I also posted a link to the DONM website and the Susan Forward Toxic Parents book. I didn't link to this thread as I wanted to keep it safe. Just hope the links are useful to someone. I shan't go back and argue our case as (just like with narc parents!) I won't be heard!! It would be nice to think that Tania Byron would think twice about what she wrote, but I doubt she reads comments on her articles.
Meanwhile I'm struggling with a possible upcoming meeting with my sister, who cut off contact with me when Mum died, but sent a card just before Christmas asking if I wanted to meet up. I took a couple of weeks thinking about it and have emailed back saying when I'm around. But I'm losing too much energy worrying about being able to say what I want - usually when she hears things she doesn't like she gets very angry in order to frighten people into backing off. (Hmm. that sounds familiar). I know I need to stand up to that in order to say what I need to say, but ... well I'm sure you get it. And anyway she hasn't come back to me; probably making me wait as punishment for my not replying to her immediately. Sigh.

[Badvoc]

Can't see me seeing my siblings for some time...but that's not unusual and am not concerned about it either.
My parents...well, thats more complicated...my mother needs a major operation and - worst case scenario - could lose her leg :( an upside is that she now MUST give up smoking.
Sigh.

[noddyholder]

I lived in a pristine house too nightmare we had to clean top to bottom daily. Apparently I was left standing in the garden because i had hung the clothes 'wrong' I don't remember but my sister does me being sent back out repeatedly. last time i saw her face to face she spent over 2 hours telling dp and I that being retired made her think of death and that when she looked at my step dad she wondered who he was and said she didn't really know him (he is lovely but bullied) So embarrassing with dp there. he was mortified but she has no boundaries and treats him like she treats me

[PrincessFionne]

I would think that after all that resistance from you directly to her (you have told her you absolutely don't want them!) you could in good conscience just throw them, bin them, burn them, or whatever, or lodge your copies of it with your Dbro also, so he knows. Whether you choose to tell her you've done that or not, I guess depends on whether you can ignore the 'poor me' diatribe that will follow

If I were in that situation, and absolutely didn't want them, her giving them to me would make me post them back (she obviously had thought already that you wouldn't take them off her if she was direct and honest with you, and IMO she will keep doing it until you do that).

Badvoc losing limbs doesn't always result in stopping smoking! I know, bonkers, but the two don't collide atall. People with cancer continue to smoke, and might even smoke more. Just depends on the way the individual takes it. Just better not to get your hopes up, but if she does quit, then a bonus!

Cheeers to you Hissy for asserting yourself to your Mum, and I think the only reason your Dsis owned up to deliberately wounding you so, was simply that she's nasty and it fulfils her needs in some way to do that, its not about you. Oh, and yeah, the leccy blanket - I also wet the bed but was given one (maybe the threat of electrocuting myself in the night would be sufficient to stop me wetting the bed, I dunno!) ha!

Fi ((hugs to all))

[HappyNewHissy]

Thanks Fi, I got it that sis didn't get enough from just being nasty without me knowing, she needed to know that I knew she'd done it.

I saw that it was all about her. Knew that I hadn't 'deserved' it. I was utterly blindsided by it.

She was really shouty with me too after my OD. I thought that was out of concern . Now I see it differently. Now all the 'WTF?' Moments look a lot different, and they paint a really ugly picture of her.

[dontfeedthetroll]

Oh prikness, sweetie, you wouldn't have been electrocuted, the wires are insulated. LOL, imagine electric blanket manufacterers would have gone out of business with being sued.

Hope all holding up.

[HappyNewHissy]

in the 70's?.... if the blanket were old it'd have been from the 60s.... I'd not risk that....


Or was I being lied to?

[dontfeedthetroll]

It could have been ignorance and one of those coincidental events where not allowing it erred on the side of caution.

It's something the manufacturers have always had to take into consideration due to bed wetting being such a common problem.

Yes, no central heating here either, and identify with frost on inside of windows. Anyone else have a loo outside? Horrid, cold, dark and who knows what spiders lurked there.

[Badvoc]

Dontfeed...yep. Til I was 12 or thereabouts.
Was grim in winter!

[financialwizard]

I lived in a pristine house too, and was terrified to breath in the wrong direction in case I blew a carpet fibre out of place! If Mum comes here she also scrubs my house to within an inch of its life even if DH and I have been doing the housework that morning. We are not lazy when it comes to cleaning either, but my Mum has a passion for dettol which makes me want to vomit due to the smell (must be a childhood thing).

[dontfeedthetroll]

I also get rearranging furniture. No mater how often I tell her to leave it alone she will rearrange and then I'm left to sort it all back out again. Why can't she understand this is not her home and she's making decisions on lifestyle which are none of her business.

Also she'll wash clothes I've hung out for an event/evening. It's not that I don't have anything else to wear but I already decided on accessories etc. and she just does whatever she likes.

[ifso]

it's about boundaries - all the stuff about them behaving like that in your homes, they have no respect for boundaries, or understanding of boundaries

simple as that

I could write a list of behaviour in the past from DM which I have only just this year learned to ignore and stop letting it upset me:

• slopping dinner on plates every evening after school...dinners mince mostly. To this day I cannot touch mince
  

-picking petty fights with my older sister i was about 10 she was 13 when it started these fights would escalate into physical violence from both her and father most evenings (i had awful flashback last year of him pushing sister up against our posh french doors in the living room) Horrific. Such behaviour from them continued until we all left home at 18. we have no desire to live domestically with DM again, and if we have to visit, we make sure to keep our stay at most 3 days, durimg which time DM will cram as much awful behaviour as possible, just for a reaction

• freezing cold house
  

-obsessive cleaning rota which we had to adhere to growing up

• dishes had to be washed immediately after dinner - immediately - no sitting together chatting about the day while our food digested. Then usually an argument would start, directed at my sister. How were we ever supposed to have had time to do homework or concentrate I have no idea but sis, myself and younger brother all have degrees and good jobs.
  

sorry for lo post but just so remarkable how so many of us here have had similar domestic experiences in childhood

determined never to repeat same with our own precious DCs

[pumpkinsweetieMasPudding]

Talking of all these toxics, it's odd isn't it how they are so extreme with the way their homes are/were.
Some toxics like pp have said are extreme with cleanliness & tidying whereas my pil are the other side of
the scale.

There house, especially their kitchen is a tip: crocery, dirty & clean all over the counters, newspapers piled up everywhere. All surfaces dirty, bread left open, crumbs, dirt and rubbish strewn on the floor, bin overflowing.
Before non contact it was like walking into an episode of "how clean is your house" - the bedrooms just as bad, mil & fil had separate rooms in a simular state to their kitchen.
The bathroom was the only tidyish place in the house
Like your parents, pil used to come round and stamp their excessiveness onto our home by dumping their wrappers on the floor, leaving their cups on the floor to be knocked over by kids, knocking my throws of the sofa, leaving chicken bones on side of sofa, it used to be very frustfrating!!!
I'm so glad i don't have to put up with it anymore

[PrincessFionne]

I felt very 'at home' transported back to the childhood hell hole! with the talk of spotless, tidyness. Felt we should float over carpets - mine would run her finger along things, tell my bro's how dirty I was and would be horrified to see my house now (but DC love) we tidy when we lose stuff, we sit and chat at the table during/after dinner, sometimes eating on trays watching films, etc. Make mess all over the floor and clear up after, ooops sometimes the next day!!! Everything spotless, and cleaning and tidying, moving my stuff about, checking nosing through bills, going into bedrooms - why? as it would drive her nuts! no boundaries, not my home atall, just an extension of hers - she would tell me the stuff she'd found in my bro's house, and how much debt he had and she'd found dirty knickers and oh gawd! it was just awful to hear that stuff you don't wanna hear about your family, but then can't tell them you know as its so embarrassing on all fronts. Despicables.

[SmellsLikeTeenStrop]

Weird. MIL does the whole cleaning things. She always checks the microwave to see if that's clean and if it isn't, she'll give that a wipe over. Same with the window sill. She's even unpegged washing and re-hung it the 'correct way'.

Her house is always very tidy and very cold. This time of year if we visit, we don't even bother taking our coats off in the house.

The odd time we've eaten there with our small children, any little bits that are dropped on the floor have to be picked up straight away. If it were my house I'd tell my guests (even family) not to bother and I'll hoover after. I thought that was just MIL being careful with her heating, and being a neat freak - but it seems pretty common, at least amongst the people here.

[dontfeedthetroll]

It's as if they are playing with a life size dolls house isn't it.

Ironically our place is positively gleaming but I can't take any credit for that, we have a wonderful woman comes in for us, I just reap the benefits. But it feels different, you know, it still feels like a home, it's ok if we ruffle cushions. I can't describe what I mean.

[forgetmenots]

My MIL is a neat freak too. Once FIL came over and he had been told to report back on the cleanliness of our house. We had tidied for him coming to avoid any problems. I had been stupid enough though to have a cuppa before he arrived. An hour after he left, the phone rang. Cue a two hour screaming phone call from MIL about how we have 'disrespected' FIL by not having our house in a fit state for him to visit... And listing as her only evidence of this 'you had two mugs in your drying rack!'

[ifso]

ironically, the tidiness was clearly no guarantee of a happy home, more often a major sign of frustration/depression

but still no excuse for making our only place of shelter as kids a living war zone