"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheMomeRaths]

Thread opener here: //webaunty.co.uk/mumsnet/
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It's January 2013, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012

Please check later posts in this thread for links & quotes. The main thing is: "they did do it to you" - and you can recover.

<br />
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.<br />
<br />
This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see <a class="break-all" href="http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/440839-but-we-took-you-to-stately-homes-a-thread-for" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">original thread here</a> (December 2007)<br />
<br />
So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.<br />
<br />
One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;<br />
<br />
'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/angry/hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/lifetime experiences of being hurt/angry etc by our parents? behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'<br />
<br />
Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's. <br />
<br />
Some on here have been emotionally abused and/or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn?t have to be any) they fall into.<br />
<br />
NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/or current parental contact has left you feeling damaged falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth. <br />
<br />
You might also find the following links and information useful if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.<br />
<br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0553814826/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0553814826&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.</a><br />
<br />
I started with this book and found it really useful.<br />
<br />
Here are some excerpts:<br />
<br />
"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect you feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defenses that they have always used, only more so.<br />
<br />
Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.<br />
<br />
Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:<br />
<br />
"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety will undoubtedly us it during confrontation to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.<br />
<br />
YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".<br />
<br />
"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behavior. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offenses against them.<br />
<br />
YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me when I was a child".<br />
<br />
"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.<br />
<br />
YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me to make a better relationship."<br />
<br />
"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties without invalidating your own.<br />
<br />
YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"<br />
<br />
"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behavior. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get," or "nothing was ever enough for you."<br />
<br />
YOUR RESPONSE: I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ....<br />
<br />
"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realize that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.<br />
<br />
YOUR RESPONSE: I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."<br />
<br />
Helpful Websites<br />
<br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.alice-miller.com/index_en.php" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">Alice Miller</a><br />
<br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_disorder" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">Personality Disorders definition</a><br />
<br />
Follow up to pages first thread:<br />
<br />
I?m sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don?t claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support.<br />
<br />
Happy Posting (smithfield posting as therealsmithfield)<br />
<br />
I have cut and pasted this because I think it is fab. Just in case anyone misses the link.<br />
<br />
More helpful links:<br />
<br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">Daughters of narcissistic mothers</a><br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://outofthefog.net/" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">Out of the FOG</a><br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.vachss.com/av_dispatches/disp_9408_a.html" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">You carry the cure in your own heart</a><br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.havoca.org/HAVOCA_home.htm" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">Help for adult children of child abuse</a><br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.pete-walker.com/" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">Pete Walker</a><br />
<br />
Some books:<br />
<br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0749910542/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0749910542&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">Homecoming</a><br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1439129436/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1439129436&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">Will I ever be good enough?</a><br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0060929324/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0060929324&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">If you had controlling parents</a><br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0385304234/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0385304234&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">When you and your mother can't be friends</a><br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1572245611/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1572245611&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">Children of the self-absorbed</a><br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0671701355/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0671701355&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">Recovery of your inner child</a>

[HappyNewHissy]

To cap it all, I'm spending ALL day with her tomorrow... In a car... :(

How on earth do I keep a lid on this?

Gah! I hate them! They do just about enough to harm, but so low level you're denied the opportunity to pull them up on it.

Makes me feel powerless.

[SmellsLikeTeenStrop]

If you didn't answer the text, is he likely to turn up anyway?

[forgetmenots]

Don't reply, and don't answer the door pumpkin, it's horrible and hard but you have to maintain the boundary, they are pushing it.

[HappyNewHissy]

Sorry for bulldozing...

I'd ignore the text from MIL and go out too. There's no point in giving them what they want which is a confrontation and a chance to tell everyone how in the wrong you are, and woe are them.

IF anyone ever says anything (and let's face it, you'll not going to bring it up) you simply say, "what text? Argh, DH phone not 100%... "

[PrincessFionne]

x with yours hissy - postings above for sparkly , but having just read yours Hissy would be led by your DS personally. I would probably talk to him emphasising GP is an adult and would be sily to get upset about some clothes that could be changed, but important that he is not uncomfortable, embarrassed as a child by anyone and under those circumstances just too bad if someone upset (its ahard one to do that young, but invaluable to them learning how to get their needs met, and if someone won't 'allow' it, just do it anyway, and how wrong it was to 'not allow'). I've had to do that, as they learn early about social graces and being polite, but I have had to explain that those rules don't apply when others expect wrong, inappropriate or too much.... Hopefully your son will feel better about that, knowing you support and he has some control back with your backing?

As for leaving him waiting for food, depends on how much you think they will listen to you? If she would then I would say to at least give a snack if she picks him up from school another time, if she doesn't agree then she can't do it (crazy tho, ain't it?)
Fi

[Midwife99]

Don't answer the text or the door pumpkin. He can leave the gifts on the doorstep if he wants !!

[PrincessFionne]

no, NC, no presents i'd say Pumpkin ignore text and don't answer door. They are forcing themselves into your lives without any respect for you/DC

[DontstepontheMomeRaths]

I would have to say something hissy but I'd spend half the night in bed trying to figure out exactly how and what to say.

[HappyNewHissy]

Thanks Fi.

I said to him I was sorry he felt uncomfortable, and that he'd felt bad. I said that it was ridiculous, and I gave him a hug, and said thanks for telling me.

The clothes she bought in Europe, so not easy to change, and now they are worn, and strained so obviously so, I'd not be able to take them to a benetton store here to try to swap for larger size.

Why Not get enormous clothes? At least you know they'll fit eventually??? :)

This is not the only event, there have been lies about his toilet habits too. Stuff that I really can't fathom. :(

I will have to limit the times he's there without me, won't I? :(

[HappyNewHissy]

I know MomeRaths, that's what it looks I'll have to do.

DS will be with us. So not much chance of a convo tbh. I'll see what boyf has to say (equally blessed in the parent department...)

At the end of the day, we'll be fine, ds will be fine, but I'll learn from this and set clear boundaries in future.

Tomorrow is about my GM, and me/DS seeing her. We're not sure how much longer we'll have her.

I'll find a way to make the DM thing right, it'll go on the groaning list of crap stuff she's doing. It's adding up nicely. But I'm not reacting to any of it. Yet.

I lived in DV situation for 10 years. I wanted out for at least 3. I had to bide my time.

I can bide some more. Mwuhahahaha! :)

[ArseBandit]

Had my Aunty (lovely, level-headed, DMs sister)txt me to ask me to ring my GF (DMs 92yo father) so he could thank me for his bday card. He was tearing up when I called, which set me off too. DM has been round his quite a lot crying, telling him how heartbroken she is, that she's done nothing wrong, that I'm lying and splitting up the family etc. It's greatly upsetting him and I'm angry she's involved him as I know he worries, and at his age he doesn't need it. She has only gone to him to try and emotionally blackmail me, knowing I don't want him upset and thinking that would force an apology out of me. Had a good chat to him and tried to explain my side. He told me he knows my nature and that I'm not a nasty person, and there have been times that he's wondered about my mother's version of things. We had a 40deg day here last week and he doesn't handle the hot weather well at all. Said he was surprised that she never rang to ask if he was ok (evidence of her self-absorption, she is his only child and bangs on about how much she cares for everyone else, does everything for her elderly relatives etc). He conceded that it's hard to accept that his daughter may not be as nice and hard done by as she is making out. I told him in a perfect world I wouldn't like to be falling out with my family but nothing is going to change unless she gets some help and sees that she has to start taking responsibility for her own actions instead of acting like the victim in everything. I can't engage with her because she is too irrational. It's nice that now I've keep quiet for long enough and not played into my mothers smear campaigns, or tried to argue my side that some of my family members are realising that somethings not adding up and are actually seeking me out to find out my side of the story.

[pumpkinsweetieMasPudding]

ArseBandit-It's awful how the toxics try to pull in the whole family, especially when it involves the vunerable, like your gf, i'm glad he is now seeing your side of things.

We have decided not to answer the text, it will only fuel pils behaviour.
If they turn up, i shall not answer the door.

[fresh]

Column by Tanya Byron in today's Times saying that a reader shouldn't go NC with her narc mum and enabler father because (paraphrase) narcissism is a mental illness and therefore should be treated with empathy. I subscribe to the Times online and will comment!

[DontstepontheMomeRaths]

And where does Tanya get this expert pov from? I'd refer her to some of the books in the OP to educate her. Grrrr

[SmellsLikeTeenStrop]

Is it even possible to empathise with a narcissist?

''why yes, I am vastly inferior to you and therefore it's only right and proper that you manipulate and bully me in to complying with you every wish''.

You just can't, for your own sanity, for your own protection you have to reject the narcissists world view and make sure you have good boundaries in place to stop them screwing up your life for their own benefit.

[fresh]

I normally find her views very sensible, but she's way off beam on this one.

[BiddyPop]

Hi all, between the general busyness, and being away for a week, Christmas meant I didn't get online.

It wasn't as bad as it might have been. But I had a few things thought out in advance - and I put on my makeup everyday that I was going to see my DM or have to talk on the phone to her - as my shield to bounce away all the negativity. Seems daft, but it meant I had taken a concious decision not to put up with her sh*t.

There were still moments over the hols though. Like her completely omitting 1 DSis's BF from plans for a major family holiday next year (to celebrate their 40th anniversary), whereas others were included as a matter of fact despite being persona non grata. All very odd. Apparently her meds aren't working right either (of course not - when you eat half a tray of the large box of chocs that DSis got as a present - and you a diabetic!!).

But we mostly ignored it, dealt with things our own way (just got up and cooked for DD at her dinnertime rather than waiting until 8 or 9 to be fed -adults can wait, DD needs to eat), went out for long walks with the siblings, went off for a family swim one morning....

DM has put me in the middle between herself and her DSis though - they are falling out and it's hard being stuck between them. I also really don't think DM realises just what sort of person she has shown herself to be to ALL the siblings this year, and that it won't be too many more years before she herself is dependent on us for care and comfort (especially if she keeps ignoring medical advice like she does - but then again, she IS a nurse so she DOES know what she's doing ).

I didn't challenge her on anything though - I still don't know what fSIL got as her present (she's as odd as DM and brought her presents away to open in her own mammy's house) so I am assuming that I can still go ahead with my wedding present for DBro. And as we just went and did what we needed to, rather than challenging her on when things would be done around us, she actually didn't have any reason to give out. Although she did also spend a LOT of time sulking watching tv in her room and resting as she was "ill".

[PrincessFionne]

no, thats right, pander to the NARC no matter how much it damages the DC (of whatever age!), as the NARC's bullying ways are far more important to understand than the damage caused to the children by them, right?

[PrincessFionne]

Biddypop have to say some of the 'nurses' I've come across couldn't be more cruel or less caring (highlighted because they're supposed to be in a caring profession, I've had nurses taking the mick out of the way I am walking because of a trapped nerve in the neck and in excruciating pain, yes, very funny, I was sooo shocked). Isn't it an attraction to these types to be ' caring' for others (polishing their halos for being such great people) and yet deny care routinely? Or go into something to do with care because they feel people will be caring for them somehow? I don't think that's explained v. well :/ anyone know what I mean? Fi

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

I have not read all the article as I don't subscribe to the Times. However, I have read a small part of it.

Is there any possibility of someone PMing me with the artcile?.

This person who wrote in would have been better off reading these "Stately Homes" pages instead.

Note to Tanya - it is not possible to empathise with a narcissist and besides which such people have no empathy whatsoever. Think too is she well off beam if she has suggested anything at all along the lines of well try to keep the relationship with the narc mother and your enabler of a father going.

I would go as far to say that it is not possible to have a relationship with a narcissist and any attempts made to do so are severely rebuffed (poor DH but if he has told me that he was going to try and salvage something from the wreakage of a narc relationship I would have told him immediately to not waste his time).

[noddyholder]

I agree I don;t think narcissists have relationships. My mum has no contact with her 2 brothers,fell out with both parents before they died,no family contact (extended) at all apart from one niece who has now had enough too! My sister and I are NC and my 2 brothers still have contact but she only emails.She has her own bedroom and has for about 25 years and will only watch tv etc alone. Her dp accepts all of this. EMpathy they don't do because as soon as they hear a problem from someone they go into competition/poor me mode Very frustrating.

[Badvoc]

Well.
I went to see my parents yesterday.
Walked into the house and my dad starts talking to me as if nothing had happened.
Sigh.
I asked about their hospital appts (which is the main reason I went) and dads endoscopy was ok. Still waiting bloods results. Mums clot is huge and she needs a bypass or she may lose her leg.
She then says "if I have the op"
Sigh.
Bangs head on wall.
Told them I am still hurt, angry and upset over what happened on Xmas day, That i don't expect them to understand but that's how I feel.
I will take the dc to see them 1 x per week but other than that will keep my distance.
I actually feel better about things today.
I think they know they have pushed me too far this time.

[fresh]

Attila have pm'd you with the article.

[hoppyscotch]

Hello StatelyHomers. I've been following this thread for a while now and have name changed for this, incase I'm outed elsewhere. I'm afraid it's a bit long, but wanted to give the (current) story straight up.

My mother is toxic and she is definitely narcissistic, although not as badly as she could be, so I've found out. She was abusive when I was younger (again, could have been worse, but was bad enough for me) and I have previously had and am currently having therapy for it (since the birth of DS I can barely look at her, I'm so disgusted with her).

So, for the past 17 years, since I was 17, she has been talking about her death. It started with the type of coffin she wanted, then progressed to me handstitching a patchwork quilt with her, a nice 'mother-daughter activity'..for her shroud!! It progressed onto sorting out the paperwork for after her death - will, living will, listing bank accounts etc. Now, I know it's INCREDIBLY responsible to do that, to save others (me and DB) from a potential nightmare. The thing is that I have never, ever been active in these discussions. At the beginning, when I was still living at home, I'd duck and dive the discussions. Later I said, politely and gently, that I didn't want to discuss these things, and following that being ignored, I bluntly said I wasn't interested, she should sort it out with her lawyer. At all stages of the paperwork discussions (a good 10 years) I have said I was thankful for her doing it, alongside, later saying I didn't want to hear it any more.

So, over the past 4 years, when I've been extremely clear and sometimes rather blunt about the fact that I do not want to hear any more talk about this, she has basically ignored me. We live in different countries (thank goodness ) and I saw her in the autumn. She said, "I know you don't like talking about this, but.." and just continued on about her will and the rest. I didn't feel like an argument, the subsequent sulk and pregnant pause where I'm supposed to apologise (and never do), so said nothing (and I mean not a word), looked disinterested and didn't really listen to what she said.

She came to ours for Christmas and stayed a few extra days to look after our cat while we were away. I KNEW she would be up to something, but I couldn't figure out what. I came home today to a note on my dining table. It turns out, that "..because she has no partner, or close family.." (the 'partner' line has been on repeat since I was about 12: poor her, she's all alone..) she had left a copy of all the documents with me, and sending a copy of them to my brother.

I am FURIOUS. I feel completely disrespected. She knows I don't want them, she has an executor (I previously declined to do it, in part because I didn't want these documents ahead of time - which I'd said, very clearly) and I feel she has been absolutely underhand in leaving them.

Of course, my thoughts about this (according to her I'm too repressed, death is a part of life, we should be more open about it), are completely inconsequential to her. I can only liken this to a semi-bridezilla planning her wedding and ignoring the pleas of the people around her, because it's 'her day'.

I have no idea what to do though. I want to email her and tell her a whole load of things I can't retract later, but will undoubtedly elicit a 'poor me, you just attack me' response and DH thinks I should just say nothing. I also thought about sending her back the documents with a note along the lines of "We seem to have misunderstood each other, I do not want these documents, so am returning them."

Is there any point though?

I'm also very near going NC with her, but know I won't just yet. I have been cutting down contact over a long time and have decided to further restrict it - including to my DS, which I've been trying hard not to do - because it's not good for my health.

Oh, and I should add: she has never had a life threatening illness, or the possibility of one. This is coming from someone who is and has been perfectly healthy (well, physically!!). If she'd had a serious illness, I would have been much more sympathetic and actively helped - at least for the first few years!

[DontstepontheMomeRaths]

I'd say nothing and shred them. But I shall await the others points of view with interest. It's very difficult.