I just need to put my head down and get on with it, don't I?

[latrucha]

Help me think this through, will you?

DH and I have been married four years. He is from another country, we live in Wales far away from any of my family, so we are quite isolated. I am a SAHM. DH has a professional job (don't want to out myself too much).

In the four years since we got married, DH has got a new job, we have had two children, I have had a very serious illness and both my parents have died.

It has now been a year since my Dad died (my mum died in 2008). In that year I have functioned well enough. The children are clean, fed, hugged played with. The house is clean enough. Finances are on track. I haven't gone off the rails at all.

I have been quiet, withdrawn, not as patient as I might be. DH has been somewhat neglected. He has helped me alot practically speaking: juggling work so I can go to bereavement counselling, getting up eary with the children so I can sleep a bit more (I do all the night wakings) etc...

He has also tried to help me emotionally but it hasn't been a great success. I think he feels a bit hurt that I can talk to a counsellor but not to him. The problem with talking to him is that he wants to fix things, interpret them, tell me whet's what. It's not really what I need.

He is a very hard-working man, to the point that it has been a problem between us. We have an agreement where he has to be at home at the weekends to see the children. Until recently, that meant that he came home after they were in bed, around 7 and we spent the evenings together. He has been really good at keepig weekends for the children.

Recently, however, he has been coming home later and later and when he does, he chats for 5 minutes, grabs something to eat standing up and dives behind his computer. He is also going to work after the children have gone to bed at the weekend quite frequently.

He is working to get a promotion, which realistically will make a big difference to us. He works extremely hard. Whether there will be a promotion available at all is doubtful though. He makes it clear that this is what he has to do for me and the children but I also know he really wants to mkae a reputation for himself and be at the forefront of his field. It's clear that he could do this.

Lately, conversation is minimal. I find it hard to engage him in any of the details of mine or the children's lives which makes me feel awful as it is my LIFE ffs. If he talks, it is always about work. he hardly smiles with me. H does with the children and with colleagues and friends when I hear him on the phone.

When challenged he says he is behaving as I have behaved for the last year, and what do I expect. He is incredibly tired through getting up with the children (but he doesn't have to work until 1am every night does he?) and through working. He lists all the things he has done for me. There is clearly a lot of resentment under the surface. He is also coming to the end of a very high-pressure part of his work and coming up to a slightly easier bit so things could improve just naturally.

From my point of view, I have carried on reasonably well under very difficult circumstances. I have done my best even if it falls far short of ideal. Just as things are becoming clearer to me and I am feeling a little more free, I feel he has given up on me. I feel very lonely and I don't know where to go from here. I do feel that the less I say the better it will be. If I say anything we will argue, I know. I feel that the only thing to do is carry on trying to be friendly and make things nice and one day things will seem a bit closer. I just have to keep my head down, carry on and hope for better things, don't I?

Sorry it's so long. I wanted to make things clear.

i'm going through similar with my dh but we haven't been through as tough times as you and he doesn't have any work to do when he gets home.

we did a marriage course before we had kids - not counselling but going over how to look after your marriage and prevent problems. the key things we try to stick to are once a week 'marriage meeting'. we have to sit down with our diary/calender and discuss the week coming up - what's planned, what we need to do, plan some time for ourselves and time together. ideally we also need a 'date night' once a week. dinner time is tough at the moment too with the time dh gets in from work but we're going to really try and eat dinner together once a week and we're trying to plan a very rare meal out together. we've really tried to talk things through over the last week and things are so, so, so much better. we've been through some tough patches since dc1 arrived but the only thing that sorts it out is to communicate properly.

his work sounds v.important (my dh has made it clear his career has to come first now, but weekends are family time only) which is why he's putting so much time into it, but if he doesn't put any time into your relationship then there won't be much of a relationship to come back to!

CailinDana - I think his argument would be that he has given the weekends to the children with only one exception since I made it clear how important I thought it was. Also, that he does a lot for me (getting up in the mornings, which really does make life easier for me) if not with me.

I'm sure that any kind of taking him to task will just cause a fight. However, we do need to find a way to change it.

Naturalbaby - You're right, I just don't know how to start a big 'us' conversation without it turning into a fight. I think a week or two of just making an effort and hoping he notices might pave the way.

Given what you've said, I do think making an effort is a good first step. It sounds like you've both become entrenched and every approach you make to each other touches a nerve. If you're kind and open with him it might encourage him to let his guard down a bit and that might open the way for a good conversation. Don't let it go on for too long though - don't fall into the trap of making all the effort while he continues to ignore you, put a time limit on it, and reassess if nothing has happened by then.

I'm not sure whether a big talk is needed. Most men run a mile from anything like that and on the run up to Christmas, it can completely ruin any atmosphere there is.

I do think that if a person in a marriage shows they appreciate the other, then the mood of the marriage can change considerably. You are lucky in many ways in that you haven't had the problem of adultery, which, believe me, is almost or impossible to recover from. You can trust him, which is fantastic.

Maybe some small steps are needed. You know he's going to be working over Christmas because he has this event at the start of January, but he does need to carve out some time when he's not working. This has to be planned, so that he's not getting agitated over it. I'd say the 23rd - 26th December should be work-free. You should do the early starts then (sorry!) and he should let you go back to bed for a bit later. That's only fair if he's got up without resentment for the last several weeks (if I've understood that correctly?) During that time, try to have as happy a family time as you can - no resentment, no arguing, no work. If you have a peaceful time together, you might find you regain some intimacy.

In many ways I really envy you - my exhusband was unfaithful and resented going to work (although he did go and had a career) - those two things clouded our marriage and meant it was doomed to failure. I would love to be with a man who works hard and whom I could trust - but I do understand how you feel when he's getting carried away with work and you are so tired.

You might like to try keeping an appreciation journal for a month - maybe by sending yourself an email each day, or keeping a private blog or something.

Each day just list:

1. one thing you appreciate that your husband did/said that day
2. One thing you appreciated about your interactions with each child
3. One thing you appreciated that was to do with interactions with your birth family or to do with friends.

Keep it present - not things that you loved in the past, or you look forward to, just things in that day. I believe that appreciation is a habit, and it's infectious. IME, a couple of weeks into keeping the journal, the appreciative comments just start spilling into every day life, and another week or two later, they start being reciprocated.

He sounds quite an alpha male; also very traditional. He's Head of the Home, the Provider; takes it personally when things aren't going well (takes it as an attack on his competence?). He also sounds quite family-centric (sp) re he won't let anyone but family look after the kids (at the expense of promoting your intimacy as a couple), he doesn't like you talking to anyone else re bereavement counselling. I would find that claustrophobic but you may be ok with it.

He's not running the show, you both are. It may be that his cultural expectations of marriage are not translating well to your culture. Our cultures are embedded incredibly deeply in our psyches and perhaps you are both unaware of how your expectations of one another are clashing on a deep level. HIs expectations of you seem quite two-dimensional in a sense - you are the Wife - and, although he may have been very supporltive during your awful past few years, he still may expect you to run and be happy on the basics. He doesn't seem to understand the emotional investment that is needed to keep a marriage healthy. happy and creative.

If counselling is a step too far for him perhaps seek out a marriage course somewhere? That can be unthreatening to alpha male types as the info isn't direct, is more about teaching. His heart seems to be in the right place though. I hope you get through this time but I can't help thinking you need more input from others to a greater or lesser degree ie neighbours, friends. You seem to be in a bit of a pod.

Sounds like its the quality time that's lacking between you. So easy to drift apart particularly when work and really hard times are happening.

Try to get him to agree a regular date night (at home if he's anti babysitting) and set a ritual - even half an hour - a day after the DCs are in bed to have a cup of tea and speak about your day. He might resist if he's stressed at work but marriage takes time and undivided attention. As said above go in with the fact that you miss him, feel lonely without you partner in life. Work is important but family more so....

P.s. Unis are usually chock full of postgrads who might make great babysitters. Particularly if they're doing psychology or education.... Maybe if he's it some students he lies he might trust thm to baby sit.

I'll read the most recent replies in detail when the children are in bed and reply then but just wanted to say that that's a good idea about the post-grads. He teaches his language so there are assistants etc around and I know he is hurt by Dd understanding his language but refusing to speak it.

ImperialBlether - thanyou very much for your input. It really helped. I'm going to read back through this thread when it all feels a bit grim, which I guess it will.

Ommmward - thanks for that idea. I like the idea of it spliing over into everyday life.

LadyMedea - I'll try and let him debrief work hen he comes in. I thikn he'd like that.

Springydaffs - I'll get back to you in a minute. I'm thinking about it!

Springydaffs - I think a lot of what you say is true but I was taken aback by it. Although a lot of what you say is true, I don't think he feels he is running the show. I can't quite express what I want to say. I'll have another think.

Academia does this to people. It's a bastard of a profession; it's psychologically as well as professionally competitive, the pressures are huge, and the guilt about not having done enough is always there. It's very hard to have an easy or recognisably normal relationship to work.

The thing is, the people who genuinely are most successful at it aren't always the ones who work a million hours a week and destroy their family life and relationships - it is possible to learn to work smart rather than (always) hard. Does he have a mentor/advisor he can trust (preferably with recent enough experience of having a young family to remember what that's like!)?

One thing I would say is worth remembering is that the promotion structure means that the chance to put in for promotion is there for a long time. It's not really like the media or banking or something where if you miss the chance for a promoted post it's gone forever and your career prospects with it - I know plenty of people who didn't make Senior Lecturer till their fifties, or Reader/Prof till later. Obviously it'd be great if it came earlier, but if he misses it now it'll probably still be there in a few years.

The wee kids won't be, of course.

There's been some fantastic advice and support on this thread already, LaT....The last couple of years have been immensely challenging for you...if you think back to last year, when you were legging it up and down the country with dd and a new-ish ds, trying to look after your dad, as well as the dcs, well, it would be surprising if there wasn't some kind of emotional fall-out as you start to put the pieces back together.

I think there's probably a balancing act between your dh being a bit unreasonable (working until 1am, when he knows he's getting up at 5 is a matter of choice...its not fair to then use his tiredness as ammunition afterwards), both of you being a bit self-centred (he's focussing on work, you're focussing on the dcs - neither of you have been prioritising your relationship), and you being a little unfair (you recognise that a promotion would improve all of your lives substantially, and you aren't very interested in his work but are frustrated that he doesn't express more interest in your day....)

Perhaps you need some ground rules? Like...

1. Babysitters are A Good Thing, and ok if they are people you know (if not the postgrads, maybe someone from dd's nursery?). You don't have to go out late or spend lots of money -just an hour or two once a week, having a quiet drink somewhere on your own can make all the difference.

In fact, as much as you love films, I think you should prioritise spending time together in an environment in which you can talk, at least for now!

1. Try to set aside a window of conversation each evening, when dh comes home. Say, 30 minutes from when he comes through the door, in which you both exchange information, and try to be interested in each other's day.

1. Date Nights at home are also great....and do need to be a bit formal. Maybe agree that every Friday evening, you will rent a film you both want to watch, get a takeaway/make something yummy together/have bread & cheese (or whatever makes you both happy) and a bottle of wine in front of the tv? But you need to agree that it starts from as soon as the dcs are in bed, and that on Date Nights neither of you will turn on your laptops for any reason.....all evening. And you have to go to bed AT THE SAME TIME on Date Nights. Sex isn't compulsory, but its a lot more likely if you have a nice evening together, a bottle of wine and both end up in bed at the end of it all at the same time.....

Sending you much love and some not very MNetty hugs (I'm excercising length-of-friendship rights here)....email me if you want to talk more....xx

I know. That's why I got out.

My parents, brother and step mother are also academics.

He feels pressure now as there is no senior lecturer in his department and he thinks he has the best chance of getting it now. Plus it would be a good time mortgage etc wise. And also TBH, because he wants it and feels he deserves it.

He does have a mentor he can trust. He's very good and I really like him. He himself is very successful. DH does everything he says. Except, that is, when he told DH to take a few days off recently.

He's coming home now and I don't want to be on the computer when he gets here.

Sad, eh? But also making an effort.

I haven't read all the replies or all your posts, but the things that jump out at me are:

• Your DH gets four hours sleep. I find it very unlikely he is working at full capacity with that little sleep - could that be why he needs to work such long hours?
• Do your children need to go to bed so early? Getting up at 5 is very early if your DH is a nightowl. Or, could you go to bed earlier (if he is on the PC anyway) so he has more of a lie in and you do the mornings?

Mainly though - try and hang in there. It is very easy when children are very tiny, to forget how much easier it will be when they are bigger. As they get older, they are less demanding of you and will give you more time to yourselves. Just a year or two will make a world of difference.

I completely agree with BuggerandArse. It's difficult to understand what academia is like until you're experienced it, which I think is reflected in some of the replies; it's not necessarily your DH being an arse or an alpha male, it's just the work culture that he's in. And it's so difficult to realise what life is like outside of academia. I compared it to a cult. Like you, I got out when I had children, and so did DH (much to my relief). Life is so much easier now (even though DH is still a workaholic).

I really feel for both of you in all your posts. :( I can understand completely the pressure that your DH feels. On the other hand, you have done remarkably well to cope so well with two small children and all the grief (literally) that life has thrown at you. You should be proud of yourself.

I'm a little further on than you. It does get easier as the children get older, but we still struggle a bit with the same dynamic as you. I told DH in a big heart-to-heart recently that well I appreciate all the stuff that he does, I'd rather that he did a bit less and instead was a bit more sympathetic, or at least a bit less grumpy. I can understand that he feels that he's doing a lot at home, as well as putting in a lot at work, but I don't feel that he understands how much effort goes into keeping things going when you are dealing with and (mine less serious than yours, by the sound of it). I wonder whether it's a bit of a stereotypical male:female reaction - the husband half-kills himself doing things to help, when really all the wife wants is more relationship, more interaction, and is happy to take on more practical crap to get it (but it doesn't seem to work that way).

I also agree with Betty - it doesn't always work, but you can often get children to shift their body clock to go to bed later and therefore wake later (my DD1 will do it, but not DD2 - typical! :)). In which case your DCs timetable would fit much better with your DH's. We do it when the clocks change, in 15 minute stages. It doesn't take long to get a change of an hour. If it works for your children, you could try for 2 hours, and have them get up at 7am, which will still be fine when your eldest goes to school.

Thanks for your replies. I'm not in a good frame of mind to reply to them right now. I'm feeling really pissed off at the lengths I have to go to to get a 'morning' from him.

Is this really normal? Dh says nothing, nothing, nothing. Barks at DD to get ready (which is really a bark at me as she is three; there is plenty of time to get ready). I say, 'Are you worried about your meeting?' He says, 'Yes. That and lots of other things.' I say, 'What sort of things?' He says, 'Nothing. Nothing.' and leaves with DD.

Isn't that just a bit crap? Sorry. Feeling really like just going to bed before he comes home so I don't have to bother.

I'll go off and try and get myself into a more constructive frame of mind.

As for the waking times, both my DCs have gone through this patch of early waking with molars at exactly the same age. Dd will sleep till 7. She is destroyed at 6pm. DS is the one who is up. There's nothing to do. I've tried averything I can think of first with her when she was little and then with him. Last week he was going to bed at 8-9 as he couldn't sleep due to molars. Made no difference to his waking time.

op - unfortunately it is absolutely totally normal and understandable for someone to behave like tht on the amount of sleep he is getting. I can absolutely sympathise as I have the samne problem with dh myself, he stays up late ont he pc and is then knackered and shouts, ignores or falls asleep.

what I think you need to do is find a way to break the cycle he has got into.

i DONT believe its about his wish to secure a promotion, being honest with yourself, i think you probably know that the amount of work he is doing for it is much more than needed.

so can you work out WHY he has become all but addicted to it? It looks as though he is trying to get away from something. Quite possible hes trying to get away from a miserable atmosphere (not a critisism, completely understandable given whats been happening in your life) - but its going to take HIM to sit up and recognise that he is AVOIDING and HIM to take some active steps to break the cycle.

There's only so much you can do - I suppose I would suggest if youre willing to give it a go, you putting on a cheerful friendly persona whenever he is around for say a minimum of 6 weeks and see whether this snaps him out of it?

Find some ways to get him off the computer. When he does come home early make sure you have a cooked meal that hes going to have to sit down and take some time over. Make sure the pc is always turned off. Loosen some of the wires so it doesnt turn on once or twice? You know him best, is there anything apart from the pc that would draw his attention?

honestly, its turned into a crutch/addiction/habit as a way of not engaging with the family.

I also think you should consider him coming home early on 2 fixed days of the week and you having the kids in the night on 2 fixed days of the week IF YOU BOTH GO TO BED EARLY ON THOSE DAYS (cos youre wasting your time if he stays up til 2am arent you!!!)

I'm sorry you were taken-aback OP. I assume that meant it hurt/offended you somehow? not my intention! I've also just looked up 'alpha male', thinking I'd stumbled on a term that has a different interpretation to what I'd thought. No doubt the term is used in a derogatory way, but I certainly didn't mean it in a derogatory way. I think it's good to know what one is dealing with, in any relationship, and he does sound to have very strong 'male' characteristics (which could well be cultural?). This is what I meant when I used the term and I'm sorry if I used it inappropriately. He seems strongly results-driven, competitive, with high performance expectation, if you like. The world needs people like this tbh but they often don't necessarily, or naturally, have the skills that make family life harmonious, calm, happy. I also wonder if he has tipped into workaholism which is misery for partners, in that the body is there but the person is absent (just like any addiction). He must be off his head with tiredness and not a sane human being on so few hours sleep and no downtime from what I can gather. Disastrous imo, all round.

Right, I'm feeling a bit less stroppy now.

He did actually go to bed 'early' last night and DS wasn't up until 6.30 but big meeting today seems to have not made things easy this morning. Last night actually went pretty well. He got home about 8 and his computer didn't go on until 9. There was a lot more eye contact and conversation even this morning. For example, he trod on something I just washed that DS had pulled onto the floor and got it muddy and when I asked him about it he apologised and made eye contact rather than just being huffy (I don't see how that can be accidental but I took him at his word).

Springydaffs - no I wasn't offended. I just couldn't really disagree with what you said but if I said it it would be very critical of DH which I don't think is exactly fair either.

Thankyou for all your suggestions. I do appreciate it. It even just helps to have it confirmed that there is a problem that needs to be solved IYSWIM. It stops me saying impetuous things in favour of seeing the long term.

I think about 6 weeks is a good time to give it until I do anything more than just try to be cheerful and hold my tongue. I'm going to suggest lunch out in the New Year, with someone looking after DCs. Seems a bit easier than an evening.

I'm going to save this thread and refer back to it when I need a bit of sustenance.

could he be a bit depressed? i've been barking orders at our dc's and not saying the basic good morning/night to dh, and just generally finding it really hard to communicate in a civil let alone friendly manor. i've been using stress/depression as an excuse and not realising how upsetting dh finds it.

You don't have to say it, just to know it. YOu have married someone from a different culture - as I did, as it happens - and you've got to get your head around the differences, the deep expectations that you both have, which needs a fair bit of digging to unearth, to work out if it is actually cultural or if the dp (either way) is out of order. So much 'easier' (not that marriage is 'easy', necessarily) when the cultures in a partnership are the same! Then you don't get unfathomable differences. Do you know much about his culture op? I assume you do. my dp (ex I'm afraid) was brought up in britain and public school educated from a young age - I assumed he was as british as me. Not so it turned out.