wifes libido, what's happend to it?

[lightning02]

Well, where do I start? We?ve been married 15 years, have two beautiful primary school age kiddies and we always had what I would call a decent relationship and sex life.
Recently though things have taken a turn for the worse and have no idea of what to do to get things back on track.

We still have sex, even though it?s not as often as I would like, but it always seems hard work. I feel that she partakes to just get it out of the way.

Initiation is 99.9% from me. Kissing isn?t allowed (only if she?s drunk!!),no oral for me, infact she doesn?t like my face near hers, she doesn?t move much and when we?ve finished she seems really agitated! Morning sex is a thing of the past. ?She says it puts her in a mood for the rest of the day!!

I get turned down regulaly and told to accept it.

2 years ago, she did go through a really horny stage,(after both kids were born) whereby she wanted it at any given moment. I relished this and never ever said no. I?d love her to be like this again (even if it wasn?t as often). Just for the fact that I can feel wanted by her and not some dirty perv who always makes the first move!

The thing is is that I love her more than anything and I find her really attractive, but can?t help but feel that if this goes on for much longer, we?ll probably end up going our separate ways.

We have, as far as I am aware of, no underlying issues. We have sat down numerous times and discussed this, but it only ends in arguments, so I tend to just keep it to myself now and walk round a bit deflated. Our household chores are split evenly, infact I probably tend to do more.

I really don?t know what to do to get things back on track, that?s if they ever will. The talking method doesn?t seem to work. The silent method, does raise her attention that something isn?t right, but that obviously isn?t a good way to help this issue. We can?t go down that line for the rest of our lives!! It sounds awful, but the more I get pushed away and rejected the more distant I feel.

Should I just not focus on this, lay off the sex and hope eventually she regains her libido and want?s me again?

Any advice would be great!

[BertieBotts]

I don't think we do understand each other, confidence. What you're describing (sex when indifferent) is pretty far removed from the scenario in my second post (sex for a purpose other than self-gratification). Perhaps from a man's perspective there is little difference, but believe me when I say that as a woman, unwanted sex is extremely invasive. Imagine that tonight your wife got out a strap-on and said she REALLY wanted to try this, it would make her very happy, and you didn't have to do anything, just lie there. You'd be okay with something like that if you weren't into the idea personally? Or even if you've done things like that before, you'd be up for it even if your heart wasn't in it that night? I doubt it somehow.

I think lots of people think that "thinking of England" is harmless, but they are kidding themselves. Even if she doesn't feel used at the time, it slowly builds up. It completely kills your desire for sex after a while, because sex = some kind of chore. It completely kills your respect for your partner eventually, because they clearly don't respect your body, and sex is all about them - you start to feel you might as well have a paper bag on your head, because you could be anyone. Where's the connection there? What is the point? Why not just have a wank?

Compromise between differing sex drives is pointless. The one with the higher drive ends up having only sex which is unfulfilling, and the one with the lower drive ends up feeling used and easily replaceable. It's not as simple as picking the middle point in such an emotionally charged issue. Both partners, if they want to resolve this (and it's not just a symptom of the relationship in general failing) need to look past the sex thing and talk about what it is they actually want, or don't want, and find a compromise which meets both of their needs.

I agree with SGB about women's libido. Either she was asexual from the start, which means she probably never had much of an interest in sex, even if she was faking it because she thought she was expected to, or something temporary is causing it. People don't just lose their sex drive for no apparent reason.

[BertieBotts]

:( bradbourne that's awful.

[Whatmeworry]

Why so little sympathy with a guy who wants to preserve his relationship and is happy to try what takes, including no sex, counselling etc and so much for a woman who has no interest in any intimacy with her husband and is not even willing to discuss the relationship?

Because its mumsNet - there's a clue in the name :o

Must say that if situation was reversed and DH hadn't been doing the business with enough enthusiasm for 2 years and didn't want to talk about it/do anything about it (and there were no obvious medical issues etc) I would be --shagging anything that moved starting to think hard about why he was still in the house.

[BertieBotts]

True, we seem to have gone a bit off topic. I think OP's idea to back off is a good one, (and for a few months at least, as someone mentioned above - anything less is still pressure, and pressure is the biggest turn off there is) and try to talk either together or via relationship counselling. I think he has had some constructive advice though, if he can pick it out. A lot of people are projecting their own experience of not wanting sex in a relationship, and while I think this is helpful, to have a lot of different reasons spelled out why women go off sex, they can't all be relevant to the OP's wife's feelings.

I'll quote Swallowedafly because I think she had the most constructive advice on here so far.

swallowedAfly Tue 26-Jul-11 11:28:13
go for the backing off without sulking or mentioning it for some time. if nothing changes then you'll need to talk again and maybe without her having felt pestered or like it was a constant issue being pushed at her she'll be more open to talking.

at least at that point you can say look i've respected the fact that you don't want intimacy with me and i realised i really don't want to push you into something you clearly don't want, i have too much love and respect for you to do that. however i think we need to address the fact that 'we're' not intimate anymore. i'm not attacking you or saying you should give me something that you don't want but i think we need to know what's going on and communicate honestly about it. if we can't do that between ourselves then i want to go to counselling together because i can't go on not understanding what is going on and feeling like there is this silence between us. (as opposed to i can't go on without sex which will make her feel that is all you care about)

i would hope she would respect that you had backed off and didn't want to hassle her to have sex when she didn't want to. you'd have proven that so she wouldn't have to be on the defense against that. i think it would put you in a different space for communication.

it'd need to be a decent length of time though so it doesn't just look like a quick manipulation iyswim.

[confidence]

SGB -

What I think does happen a lot in this sort of situation is the man is actually rubbish at sex, and the woman previously put up with it due to being madly in love in the early days of the relationship, but it's worn a bit thin.

Aye, I agree with that, a lot.

I'd go even further and say that sometimes, women either put up with sex they aren't particularly enthusiastic about, or pretend to want more sex than they do, because it's part of the process of building the relationship towards having a family. Not that they necessarily do this in a conscious, manipulative sense, but they're focused on a whole process culminating in having and raising children, that includes conceiving the children in the first place, and keeping the man happy enough that he'll stick around. The sex drive is more of a general thing tied in with all this than a specific decision about whether she actually feels like it on each occasion.

Once the kids are born and growing up, and there's all the added factors of no sleep, no time, bodies changing, money worries etc, it's probably easy to feel like sex has served its purpose and is now more trouble than it's worth - particularly if it was never actually that good in the first place. This may be because the man is "crap at sex", or it may be because she just has a low libido, or a combination of both.

The problem is that during that initial period, men don't generally understand that their partners' sex drives are all bound up with these general factors and long term projections. Men just want sex, in and of itself, and they presume when their partner says she "wants sex" that she means the same thing. Reasonable really, but misguided. Problem is that during and after the babies/poo/sleep deprivation/general boredom phases, the man just carries on wanting it that way...

I don't know about anyone else but I don't think any of this was ever explained to me during my sex ed classess at school. I wonder if we'd all be better off if it was.

[confidence]

Mathanxiety -

No there is no such thing as a fair compromise because it involves doing something with/to the body of the other party that that party does not want to have done to them.

So I shouldn't give my wife oral sex because I know she loves it and is highly likely to come from it, despite the fact that I don't personally find it enjoyable and sometimes find it a bit unpleasant?

And when she does get off on it, is she being as evil and oppressive towards me as all those husbands are who sometimes have sex with their wives when they're not particularly horny? Am I being psychologically damaged by this whether I realise it or not?

And no matter how much you want to pooh pooh the idea that relationship factors may be involved in the demise of the libido, this problem is happening in the context of a relationship.

Just to be clear - I've never pooh poohed that at all. I've said several times that the problem may well be rooted in other areas of the relationship, and all those avenues should be explored. All I've said in addition to this is that in SOME cases, very low libido can just be a physical fact that isn't due to any particular emotional problem.

[confidence]

Bertiebotts -

Compromise between differing sex drives is pointless. The one with the higher drive ends up having only sex which is unfulfilling, and the one with the lower drive ends up feeling used and easily replaceable. It's not as simple as picking the middle point in such an emotionally charged issue.

Well, the "emotional charge" is a very subjective thing and stronger or different for some people than others. I fully respect your descriptions of how you would react to various sexual situations, but I don't understand how you can be so convinced that they are absolutes for all humanity and every other woman in the world must react the same way. All I can say is that in my experience, that has not always been the case. Viva la difference!

Both partners, if they want to resolve this (and it's not just a symptom of the relationship in general failing) need to look past the sex thing and talk about what it is they actually want, or don't want, and find a compromise which meets both of their needs.

So compromise is pointless, but they need to find a compromise. OK.

[larrygrylls]

Swallowed,

You can look at that from either perspective. What kind of self respecting adult allows him/herself to be "used" for someone else's pleasure and then resents it afterwards? Saying no is always an option (in a normal and non violent/abusive relationship). Having sex without really participating is probably the ultimate passive/aggressive action within a relationship. I don't see what any man or woman would get out of that kind of sex, yet they are both for some reason participating in it.

[confidence]

SwallowedAFly -

I do think you are seeing this in a very blinkered way if you don't get how this experience would be for a woman.

Again, as I said to BB, I'm not denying the power of the experience you describe. I'm only disputing the presumption that it MUST be the experience of EVERYONE who sex when they don't particularly want to, under ANY circumstances.

As I've already described I've done plenty of times, and still do, sexual things that I don't particularly like and even find unpleasant. I don't feel I'm traumatised by such things or that my partner can't really love me because she let's me do them. Is this a gender issue - are men more resilient to such things than women? I don't know. I've certainly heard some women talk about uninvolved sex in a much more off hand and even humorous way than you are, so I suspect not. Probably each individual is just different.

[larrygrylls]

Swallowed,

Fine by me. You have zero empathy for anyone male, so I suspect the OP will have zero interest in your input.

With regard to the "1 trick", pots and kettles come to mind.

[larrygrylls]

Swallowed,

My suggestion to the OP is that he at least consider that his wife is having an affair. It seems the most logical explanation for her sudden change of attitude. He should at least put it to her. He should also attempt to go to counselling, were his wife also willing.

Where is your empathy. You judge him a virtual rapist but disguise it in such a way as saying he "should confront what he is doing" in order to solve his problem. Really helpful or pertinent to him? I doubt it.

We don't like one another's views, let's leave it at that rather than turning it pointlessly personal.

[SpringchickenGoldBrass]

Confidence: I think you are making a big mistake in assuming that 'men' and 'women' are so very different WRT their libidos. There are plenty of men who are not that bothered about sex, and will engage in it in the early stages of a relationship before tapering off in a kind of 'done my duty' way - often to their wives' bitter frustration. And because, culturally, women are supposed to be the ones to accomodate and defer to men, women in such a situation feel miserably guilty as the men often do a good job of convincing them that they are desperate dirty nymphos for wanting sex now they have DC. Sometimes it's children these men want, often it's domestic servicing. Of course, some couples can be very happy, long term, in a relationship with little or no sexual activity, if they both have low libidos.
It remains 100% true that no one's libido is ever going to be revived by nagging, whining, bullying, sulking or groping. SAF's advice about apologising to the DW in the OP's situation and asking if counselling can salvage anything is the best so far. Because another thing to bear in mind is that when a relationship is in this state of one partner pushing for sex all the time and the other either refusing or enduring it to keep the peace, the relationship is poisoned.

[confidence]

SGB: You may well be right about gender and libido. Most of my experience of married couples we know with children is that the man continues wanting it while the woman doesn't, or does much less. But there are plenty of threads on this very board about the opposite scenario so I'm sure it exists too.

I must admit larry's theory hadn't occurred to me, but the double standard is striking. It's true that if the same OP had been posted with the genders reversed, many people would instantly think that the guy must be having an affair, and can't enjoy sex with his wife because he feels guilty or his mind is elsewhere.

Every article or study on the subject I've read has said that as many women as men cheat on their spouses. So it would seem just as reasonable to leap to that conclusion - or at least theory - in this case.

But I think the truth is we don't know nearly enough from the OP to draw conclusions about any of these things.

[Malificence]

Confidence, So does your wife know that you can find giving her oral sex unpleasant?

I couldn't enjoy oral if I knew my husband was only doing it under sufferance, sex is supposed to be mutually enjoyable.
I would only enjoy my husband doing something if I knew he was enjoying it too, and vice versa.
I give him oral because I love doing it, part of that is because I know he adores it, but I certainly wouldn't do it if I found it unpleasant and he wouldn't want me to do it either.

I can't think of anything more of a turn off than your partner saying," I don't want sex but you can fuck me anyway, I'll just lay there making a mental shopping list" - that seems so insulting, to both partners.

[confidence]

Confidence, So does your wife know that you can find giving her oral sex unpleasant?

She must do! Partners are supposed to be able to read your mind and tell when you're not enjoying yourself whether you say so or not. Or is it only men that are supposed to have that skill? :)

^I couldn't enjoy oral if I knew my husband was only doing it under sufferance, sex is supposed to be mutually enjoyable.
I would only enjoy my husband doing something if I knew he was enjoying it too, and vice versa.^

Fair enough. Everybody's different.

In my experience the "give and take" of sex is often sequential rather than simultaneous. Some women for example, for maybe 5 minutes or so before they achieve orgasm, need to just lie back and focus entirely on themselves and what they're feeling. One is often doing things "for" the other person and then having them do things "for" oneself. I don't have a problem with any of this - as long as everybody is happy with the situation as a whole and not feeling bitter about "having" to do anything.

Of course I get pleasure from the fact that giving my wife oral sex gives her pleasure. That's how love works. It's just it doesn't give me any direct, physical pleasure. I don't see, in principle, how this is any different from someone "giving" their spouse vaginal intercourse for their pleasure.

Whether it's OK or not for the relationship probably depends on the total sum of what each partner gives to the other, and whether one partner has a nagging feeling of being shortchanged.

[SpringchickenGoldBrass]

Confidence: I understand your point about oral - the thing is with performing oral is that, unless you're having a 69, it does not provide direct stimulation of the genitals for the giver. However, there is pleasure in performing oral: both from the fact that you enjoy your partner's enjoyment, and also (at least for some people and hopefully for most) there is some sensual enjoyment in the smell and the taste of someone you are attracted to. If the partner is minging, insist s/he has a fucking wash!

However, FFS you are wrong about vaginal intercourse. If a woman is not enjoying it and doesn't want to do it, it causes physical discomfort up to the point of pain. Even with lube. And if this happens regularly, the woman will go right off sex, probably forever, the subconscious mind will make a firm link between penetration and distress.

[DrunkenDaisy]

SGB is right.

Having vaginal sex regularly with someone when you don't want to is completely different to say, giving a BJ and getting an achey jaw and wishing he'd hurry up.

Vaginal sex when not wanted completely fucks with your head and I would quickly fall out of love with a partner who was happy to do it to me and would whine or bully me until i gave in.