Just asked alcoholic dh to leave (again)...

[halfcaff]

Hi, have posted about this before. I allowed dh back home after only a few days back in March, when I had asked him to leave temporarily while he got some help for his alcoholism. He claimed to be totally shocked, intended to change and went straight to AA. Stayed completely sober for 2 weeks then started to slip, and has been slipping more and more ever since. He hates AA, and has stopped going. He has not looked into any other kind of therapy, counselling, hypnosis, etc. but has got anti-d's from GP which he has been taking for a month, just increased the dose. They seemed to help at first but now he is just drinking on top.

I have been attending Al Anon for a year, have read Co-Dependent No More by Melody Beattie, learned a lot about alcoholism and talked to both recovering alcoholics and partners of active and recovering alcoholics, and I have really struggled with making 'detachment' work when I just will not tolerate him drinking around the dc or coming home drunk, even if not very drunk. I had given him leeway by saying, look I know stopping is hard, but just please stay away if you want a drink after work or something. (He commutes over an hour away)

He let us down again last night, and there were two empty wine bottles in his backpack. He swore he hadn't been drinking.

I have just told him not to come home tonight or this weekend, except to collect some stuff and go to his mum's, and if he gets some real help there may be one more chance, but that is it. If he comes home tonight I will go to a solicitor tomorrow. I hate the thought of it.

If I knew he would comply quietly, I would feel little but relief. I just know he his going to try to talk me round again with promises and pleading - that's the bit I am dreading.

Any support, also 'shares' from those in similar circumstances, would be gratefully received.

[HecateQueenOfTheNight]

Sorry that you're facing this. Bump for someone with relevent experience for you.

• the boards move so fast that threads slip down the list before people have a chance to see them.

[zikes]

Perhaps pack what he needs and have it on the doorstep? Or pass it to him on the threshold so he doesn't get chance to come in and start talking?

[livinginazoo]

You sound strong and in control and that you are doing exactly the right thing. You have to put yourself and your children above and beyond any other feelings you have.

The only thing I would mention is that you talked about him taking ADs, for depression I assume. Is there any further support for him planned, or is the GP leaving it at that? It is common that depressed men have addictions as a way of making them feel better, self-medicating if you like. Alcohol obviously, sex, porn, gambling... Also, alcohol and ADs don't mix well, as the medication works much worse. If he is self-medicating the problem would not go away without proper counselling to understand the root of the behaviour.

You are right to insist on him getting help, but he needs to want to or it wont work, and it would also not be a smooth all or nothing process. You need to work out whether the uncertainty and wait is worth it, because he might well choose alcohol over his family and wouldn't be the first person to do so. Also this could well turn into a carousel ride that goes on for a long time if you don't take and remain fully in control.

[Xales]

Every time you allow him to talk you around with empty promises and pleading gives him no reason to change.

If you want him to change and for your relationship to be happier and healthier you have to do this for both of you.

There can be no 1 little drink. He has shown he is incapable of managing it. For the two of you to work it has to be zero and you have to be determined and strong.

[BCBG]

Halfcaff, I am really for you and dcs, but you have tried to help him and you have tried to understand. In my personal experience, this doesn't work, and in the end, you have to wait for the alcoholic
C to reach their own personal rock bottom before they can turn it around. for some it is this sort of separation, for many more it is much much lower, and believe me that can be depths you would not believe. I have been there, my sister was an alcoholic for 15 years, for the first ten she as a functioning alcoholic in that she could just about keep her job going, but the downward spiral accelerated with each lapse because it reinforced her dependency on a drink to deal with feelings of guilt and failure. She also hated AA and wouldn't go. In the end, we all had to stop 'enabling' her, by not talking to her when she had been drinking, by not taking the phone calls, by not lending her money. It was agony. She lost her flat, I rented her somewhere. She had to be evicted after she left it in a terrible state. she ended up holed up in a filthy caravan on a fruit farm with an itinerant farm worker who had sex with her and bought whisky and carlsberg in the village shop so she didn't have to go anywhere. ( we had taken her car keys because she drove drunk every day). She called me a hundred times saying she would die if I didn't help. I had to wait it out. In the end she left the caravan and walked two miles into the village barefoot to get to a phone to call me again. I drove her to a clinic for what was the third time in three years. this time I persuaded them to do a psychiatric evaluation, not just a 28 day detox and she was diagnosed as bipolar and put on Prozac. she hasn't drunk for the last 3 years.

In my experience, the NHS will only offer alcohol treatment where the patient has shown a capacity to reduce his or her drinking voluntarily and sadly my sister never got to that stage for more than 24 hours. Looking back, she says that all the time the family kept helping her, she was spiralling down under a blanket of guilt and shame. If you stop trying to pretend that his drinking is acceptable it becomes easier for you nd the children to move on and have a normal time ithout him. His addiction may hve some very complex causes or it may be quite simple, but it is HIS addiction, and he needs to get himself to the point where he is sick of feeling the way he does. Be warned, that may be a long, long way away, but the sooner you are firm the sooner that will be.

[RedRosie]

That advice from BCBG is absolutely excellent and it is difficult to think of better. I am not married to an alcoholic, but am the child of one so have more experience than I'd like in this area.

You have to look after yourself and your children because that is something you can control and manage. I would concentrate on that for now, ask him to leave if he won't stop drinking. If he has somewhere safe to go that's a massive bonus.

It's the hardest thing in the world knowing that you can't make people stop drinking. Only they can do that. And it does happen. My alcoholic parent has not had a drink for twenty years.

[bobblehead]

Hi Halfcaff, I'm still in a similar situation too . You are doing exactly what I would do if dh had somewhere to go. I used to send him to his office as he could stay there a bit, but as he drinks less and now seems "normal" drunk (i.e not trying to start fights of the "you hate me don't you" variety) I let him be. (He made a suicide attempt when alone there before, so sometimes its no easier with him gone!).
We are abroad with no family and he has no real friends so nowhere to kick him out to....

I think you're doing the right thing. Detatchment is so much easier when you don't have to deal with them drunk- it just ceases to matter if they've had 2 bottles of wine or not and lied about it!

Can I ask how your children react to his alcoholism? Are they aware of it?
Also will his parents help him do you think?

Good luck. I understand what you're going through...

[SpringchickenGoldBrass]

THis must be ghastly for you, but please remember there is nothing you can do to make this man stop drinking unless and until he decides he has had enough. All you can do is detach - which means you either throw him out of the house and keep him out (this may mean legal action) or you accept that he will continue to drink and just ignore it. Don't take the second option if he is an aggressive drunk, or prone to doing things like leaving the gas on or the taps running, or if he behaves in any way that's dangerous to other peope in the house or distressing for them -eg if he's forever pissing on the furniture or breaking things when drunk, even if it's not out of aggression it;s unacceptable.

[Bunbaker]

"That advice from BCBG is absolutely excellent and it is difficult to think of better."

I'll second that

"I am not married to an alcoholic, but am the child of one so have more experience than I'd like in this area."

And my SIL is married to an alcoholic who is no longer drinking. Unfortunately his health has been irretrievably affected by the alcohol - 80% of his liver has been destroyed, and all the toxins in his body are affecting his brain. He behaves like someone with severe dementia and SIL has to keep an eye on him 24/7. He has been given 2 - 5 years to live.

[halfcaff]

Thanks everyone. I have been thinking about packing a bag for him, but in some ways would rather he came in when we are not here to sort it out.

Hi Bobblehead I remember you from a previous thread.

Last time I threw him out it was after another round of drunkenness when he was meant to be doing childcare (ds is 6). His reaction surprised me and I thought there was a real chance for change, although I knew from all my reading that it was a slim one. Since I 'allowed' him to come back I have no longer trusted him to be in charge of dc (or drive them anywhere unless in the morning when I know he is sober), so there hasn't been the opportunity for him to really mess things up. It's just the constant lying, hiding booze, pretending it's all ok, all the time drinking only soft drinks in front of me (which I have been buying him by the bucketload), which leads me to believe he may never get a grip on this, as he clearly at the moment just doesn't want to enough. He thinks that spending a week or two sober just proves he is in control so he can then drink again.

Last time I was texting him, making sure he had somewhere safe and 'dry' to stay, giving him loads of encouragement, but this time I have no idea where he is staying tonight and am trying not to worry about it. At least I am not ruining his chances of recovery, as he was drinking anyway.

Re: DC's awareness of the problem, DD (11) has been very upset by his behaviour at times,( irrational, inconsistent, mainly embarrassing.) She has been contacting Childline for support. She feels angry with him and angry with me for not stopping him. I try to have rational conversations with her and really teach her to hate the disease, not the alcoholic. DS adores his dad and won't hear a word 'against' him, (i.e. he doesn't even like me to disagree with him or sound annoyed!) but has been upset and bewildered sometimes seeing him drunk.

His mum is 87 and gets very upset thinking about it. She wrote him a lovely letter after a recent stay when he spent half the time drunk in bed. Don't think she can help other than giving him somewhere else to stay this weekend.

I know it is up to him, he knows where to go for help, he has friends who have had success with AA, and other friends who are unreformed heavy drinkers who have never tried to stop. So, which way will he go?

[heididrink]

Hi
I dont know if I can add anything to make you feel better re your decision.
I am a child of an alcoholic and my father left my mother when I was 5 years old basically because his drinking had got out of control.
I still have to deal with the legacy of his drinking many years later.
My mother has no idea of what I witnessed and what I can still remember. I have never really discussed this with her.
I believe that she thinks that I was so young that I was not really affected . I have vivid memeories of him drinking and it still affects me today.
I am eternally grateful to my mother for being so strong and not taking him back despite his pleadings - my life might had been so much worse
The memories however will never leave me . I have an absurd fear - I thought - of fire breaking out when I was asleep. My father fell asleep with a cigarette and the house was ablaze apparantly when I was about 3 years old - not once but twice.
I always felt that my fear was irrational until I spoke to my mum.
I was okay with my dad being an alcoholic as a child it didnt really hit me until I was an adult and had kids of my own.
Your kids are probably witnessing much more than they are prepared to say

[bejeezus]

hi halfcaff- i am in your situation

i am married to an alcoholic for 10 years now. He had a dry-drunk period of 3 years which has just ended. The dry period was brought on by a rock-bottom episode, in which he was caught drunk driving, lost his licence, lost his job, lost our home and was hospitalised. I took him back thta time, believing that he would never drink again

he used to hide bottles around the house/ drink soft drinks in front of me (laced with spirits)/ turn up drunk to do child care/ not turn up to do child care/ spend all our money/ stay out/ come in start cooking and then pass out. I have been woken on a number of occassions by smoke.

I have asked him to leave a gazillion times in the past but this time I mean it. I also struggled with detachment. Or rather, I detached really well, but I dont want to live with someone that I have detached from

You already know this but- you have to stop thinking about what help and support he needs to get and how you might make him do thta. You need to concentrate on keeping you and your kids safe and healthy. If his behaviour could cause any danger to yourself or the kids you can get a court order to make him leave the home (eg my cooking example) immediately. I have just started legally proceedings to get a divorce and am trying to sort out finances and practicalities etc. It is an absolutely horrendous experience in my opinion. Ive hit many many crises where it looked like my life was going to have to be shit but I am overcoming them 1 by 1- it appears that it is a long, slow and painful process and the whole time what you really want is for your husband to just be your husband and not have a drinking problem at all. My dh is refusing to leave our home. Ive spent many days on the sofa in my dressing gown, and wish that I could fast forward 12 months to when things will be different and hopefully stable again

I whole heartedly think you are doing the right thing in getting rid of him but that is coloured by my own experiences. Not everyone is the same and people do manage to live with their alcoholics. My kids are little but they are getting to an age where they are more aware now and that has been the key for me, in making the change.

A good friend said to me 'you leave when it becomes more painful to stay than it is to leave' and I think that is very true

[RedRosie]

So sorry for all of you in this situation. The children of alcoholics often suffer, and I certainly had a miserable and traumatic childhood - one which I rarely discuss even with my DH. I do remember blaming the other parent sometimes ... I don't blame anyonr now, in adulthood (middle age sadly) because I understand so much better the desperation both alcoholics and those who love them feel.

Take care of yourself and your DC and put them first. Its all you can do. I hope your DH can take responsibility for his addiction and address it. Then perhaps, one day, you will have him back in your lives. It does happen. Millions of people give up drinking and pick up their lives again. But only they can do that, you can't make people do this - it has to come from them.

[halfcaff]

Thanks again,it's really good to hear many different perspectives. bejeezus you sound exactly like me in not wanting to end the relationship but feeling there is just no choice. We've actually been together 21 years and just had our 14th wedding anniversary, but the drinking only got to be a problem about 3 years ago, although the signs were there before that, and he had a few accidents (pushbike, or just falling over!) which were probably drink related over the years, when he was out without me.
I am not scared of being on my own, it's just the traumatic time ahead that brings me down.

[halfcaff]

Sorry I meant to say there is nothing really dangerous I could quote, except for falling asleep when he was meant to be looking after a young child. He doesn't smoke any more, we don't have a gas cooker (!) and as I said I would never leave him alone with the kids now.

[bejeezus]

I am not scared of being on my own, it's just the traumatic time ahead that brings me down)

i feel like this but I think if you leave the trauma becomes less and less (migt not stop completely because tey will always be in our lives as the father of our children) . But if you stay, the trauma just goes on and on.

the other thing I think which has been important to me is to really accept that this is going to be hell for a while and being prepared to endure it

I think thats what I mean about it being more painful to stay than it is to leave.

when are you seeing the solicitor? - mine put quite alot of emphasis on the disruption it caused for the kids (coming in in the middle of the night and disturbing everyone, me having to stay awake to make sure the door is locked, therefore affecting MY ability to look after the kids- stuff like that) You may be able to ham it up a bit if you wanted to try and get an occupation order. I have threatened 1 but havent gone through with it yet.

[halfcaff]

I threatened to see a solicitor straight away if he came back lastnight. He didn't so I am biding my time to see what he does at the weekend. I want him to have found somewhere to stay properly for the next few months and not keep pestering to come back here.
The worst thing he does really is to stagger around like an idiot talking rubbish which has completely destroyed dd's respect for him. There have been a couple of occasions when he has been out with us and has gone off drinking in secret so he could barely walk, has soiled himself, fallen over etc. in front of dd.
Mainly he then just goes to sleep, which is a relief all round.

[popalot]

living with an alcoholic is a nightmare, frankly after having lived with one for 4 years I would say you must stick to your guns and if he doesn't change he doesn't come back. My life without my ex is happy and stress free.

They simply take up too much of your emotional time - worrying about them, having sleep deprivation, worrying about them with the children, perhaps they can be nasty (mine was). They also take up a lot of your physical time - cleaning up after them (vomit, wee, mess in the kitchen) and putting them into the recovery position and guiding them to the toilet so they don't make another mess. It is easier dealing with a newborn than a drunk. And a drunk's problems are never ending.

If you want to be this guy's carer then let him come back. I don't think anyone should be such a burden on someone and remain like that because they are loved by them. I would never do that to someone I love. I understand addiction but then I also understand some people are selfish, and if he doesn't want to go to AA then he is selfish and why should you give up your happiness and life for someone who doesn't care about your sacrifice.

Anyway, you probably know that you are an enabler (because of love and dedication no doubt). He needs to sort himself out alone. Otherwise he will never do it.

[Thomas1969]

Sorry to say it but he must go and get his problem dealt with. Until then he does not get back into the house. Two weeks is no kind of abstinence. Its a joke. I know kicking booze is very hard but he has to know clearly from you that its not something you accept. Throwing him out and letting him back is proof to him that he can, one way or another, have his cake and eat it.

[SaggyHairyArse]

I wouldn't give him another chance. My opinion is that you should not let him back into the family home until he has stopped drinking, full-stop. In the meantime, he gets support (that he arranges for himself and he sticks to whatever program he decides works for him) and you focus on yourself and bringing up the children and having your life.

Do not waste your time 'waiting for him'. Pursue your own happiness. If, IF, he does sort himself out and you haven't moved on then maybe there would be a smidgen of a chance that you can have a relationship again (don't tell him that!).

My opinion and advice is based on the fact that I asked my husband to leave last August, he left in the September, after many, many, many chances and I now could not be happier.

Alcoholics are selfish, they do not consider others, their primary concerns are themselves, drink and themselves followed by more drink. They also lie, a lot.

Now that I am not living under the daily weight of somebody else drinking themselves to death, I can see how abnormal our relationship was, the compromises I always made because of the drinking and generally just how shit our relationship and my life became. Really, no man is worth that. We all have the right to be happy and to be in a relationship where the whole families needs are recognised and not where everything revolves around one waste of fucking time idiot alcoholic.

You deserve better, you need to believe that!

gets off soapbox

[halfcaff]

Yes these are the things I need to hear.
I feel I need to say I have been working at not enabling since I started at Al Anon. I have never had to clean up wee or vomit, and I made him put his own shitty clothes in the machine! He is still currently able to earn a good wage, it's just the leisure and family time which is suffering, although we have had some lovely days when he is sober. (He is not usually a difficult 'dry drunk' - just don't get why he drinks sometimes when things seem so hunky-dory)
I am sure it is only a matter of time before something goes wrong at work and he gets the boot (he is freelance although does nearly all his work for one company, so there would be no disciplinary, notice period or anything like that - he would just be out).
He is selfish, always has been rather, but is basically a good guy with a terrible problem which is affecting all of us. It is a terrible shame.
I am determined to stick to my guns. I know he is going to be asking me where he is meant to stay -he will be reluctant to sort this out himself.

[bluepaws]

does he drink and drive?

[halfcaff]

I have not had proof of him drinking and driving but I have suspected it a couple of times.

He texted to say 'Can I come home tonight?' I said he could come and collect some things, but basically 'refer to previous e-mail.' He's coming tomorrow morning to take a bag and the car to stay at his mum's for the weekend. He'll be back at work in the smoke on Monday, so will go to the next phase then. I'll probably have to really drum it in to him that I mean what I said and he needs to find a room/flatshare or something for the next few months. I really think he was hoping he could just come home tonight for good, thinking I would have calmed down a bit by now. He hasn't really got a clue.

[BCBG]

Halfcaff... I really didn't want to add again to this thread because it's still painful, but I feel I have to say a couple more things:, 1) my sister went back to live with our elderly mother when she had run out of options and it was too much effort for her to find a roof over her own head. In the next three years she wore Mum into the ground, with the guilt, the FEAR of her rages, the drunken antics on the kitchen floor, the passing out...everything . A mums love is so strong that she felt obliged to try and help, and it was an intolerable burden that contributed to her death last year. She got money out of mum, convinced her that she was controlling or cutting down on the booze, then would suddenly lose it completely so that I had a crying and frightened elderly lady on the phone to me while I could hear the alcoholic ranting and shouting in the background. I aged 20 years in three . And let's assume your MIL realises that it's not her problem and gets him to move on. Where, exactly? My mum was terrified of the scene that might ensue, of the shame that would follow if she kicked the alcoholic out of her house. I had to do it for her, in the end, and it's only because my sits survived and is in recovery that I can live with myself for doing that.

Secondly, you say that " I want him to have found somewhere to stay for the next few months" and I can feel the craving for relief in those words....because if he is somewhere safe, you feel that you will be able to stop worrying. I meant it when I said that he has to sink to his personal bottom, and you have to let him. If he has nowhere to stay, so be it. If his friends tire of him, so be it. If his mum can't cope, so be it. Only when he is on the street, or as with my sister, in a filthy caravan somewhere, will his recovery instinct kick in. Or not. You have no option to be as tough as tough can be, and close your ears to the pleading: NOTHING will move him into dealing with the difficulty of recovery until for him, the option o NOT feeling with it is worse.

[SaggyHairyArse]

Be strong. You need to tell him he can't come back until he has resolved his problems and even then it is not definite as you have had enough.

BCBG (((hugs)))