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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Relationships

Should I stay in my marriage for the kids?

148 replies

GeorgeBaker · 09/09/2010 21:17

Hi,

I am a 36 y/old man. I recently had a very brief, very intence affair with someone, it has all ended very messily, in that my wife found out and its become a painful situation all round, involving lots of people.

Please feel free at this stage to direct any verbal abuse at me, I'm kinda getting used to it, although I totally deserve it.

My wife and I have 2 kids together and I love my kids more than anything in the world. I know though that I don't love my wife anymore. She is a wonderful person, attractive, good fun, great mother and is great in so many ways. However, I have fallen out of love with her and have for a while.

My question though is should we stay together for the sake of the kids? Is it better to have 2 parents who love their kids but are apart, than have 2 parents who live under the same roof but the love has gone?

Hope there is some sense out there, cause right now i don't know whether I am coming or going.

George

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AllThreeWays · 11/09/2010 00:25

I ended my marriage because of my affair and no longer loving my husband.
In my opinion if it is at all possible marriages should be repaired, I don't believe love dies, I think that we can just get a little bored and lazy with our relationships. Love is not just a feeling it is an act of our will, otherwise most marriages wouldn't last.
The affect of our separation on the kids is awful, two homes, never having both parents when they are sick, new partners. We get on well and work well together, but my son still cries for no longer have his "family" two years on.
On the flipside, if you cannot repair your relationship and love your wife in thought, word and deed, then that is not good for your children either.

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thenamehaschanged · 11/09/2010 00:43

um gingerwig - op said his wife was feeling that the last ten years of her marriage is now a sham, which I totally empathise with her for feeling that way, and agree with her because it's the way I would feel.

I'm a little raw on this subject myself. My best friend has just found out her husband has been having an affair behind her back. She was telephoned at home by the OW when putting her little boy to bed one evening.

I'm sorry, but in my opinion, conducting an affair behind your spouses back, when there are young children involved is selfish bastard like behaviour.

There are better ways to deal with your unhappy marriage is all I'm saying.

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WhenwillIfeelnormal · 11/09/2010 01:52

Just to add George there are a lot of people on this board who have been in your wife's position, myself included, and so it is understandable that there will be angry posts.

But I want you to stay on here and keep posting, because if we can help you to unpick some of the things you perhaps don't yet understand, I think it will be good for both you and your wife.

I also often think when I'm trying to help some poor woman on here who's discovered an affair: "Oh, I wish I could talk to her H."

It's pretty rare on here to hear from a man who has had an affair and it's interesting to read your perspective.

So do keep posting, but I want you to challenge some of the scripts you have been following for the past year and to be really honest about your feelings.

There are lots of myths about affairs and I am really interested to unpick what happened to you and your wife - and why.

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SolidGoldBrass · 11/09/2010 08:50

It is worth asking, George - was there a libido mismatch in your marriage before the affair? Also, do you think your wife was happy with you before the affair?

I'm another one who doesn;t think affairs are the worst thing in the world and that sometimes the 'betrayed' partner is a fuckwit or bully who has destroyed the straying partner's self-esteem anyway. Mind you that doesn't sound like what hapened with you.
YOu do seem to have a bit of a problem understanding that life doesn't just happen to you, you make decisions. You didn't fall over and land with your cock in this woman. She didn't, presumably, spike your morning coffee with something and drag you into the bushes on the way home from the school run. I also think you havea bit of a problem considering women as people rather than supporting props in the story of You.

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GeorgeBaker · 13/09/2010 16:23

ginerwig, thanks for the comments.

No, had never considered ending it before the affair, there were never problems as such before, but the last year has been a very stressful one for us during which time I think we have both lost track of ourselves and each other.

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GeorgeBaker · 13/09/2010 16:38

Dear whenwillifeelnormal.

Thank you for the excellent comments above and taking the time to respond.
In fact I am having some therapy {something i thought i'd never have to do, but learning not to be embarassed by it}. Been diagnosed as depressed, but met with an excellent therapist who's worth every penny. Mumsnet is proving to be just as good and a lot cheaper though.
Have anyone heard of depression leading to an affair before? Certainly my wife doesn't believe that can happen, that it is an excuse.

The disconnent with my wife was before anything happened, several months before, but maybe the two are related? I can see what you are saying about creating problems to preempt something, but I certainly never set out to have an affair.

And yes the OW made it obvious to some of her friends a long time before that she was 'going to have me' which doesn't excuse my part in it at all of course.

In response to your other post, yes I wanted to come on here to get some female perspective, sure I knew i'd get a lot of barbed comments {which are totally justified}, but i'm looking for the wisdom within the other comments.

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GeorgeBaker · 13/09/2010 16:46

also whenwillifeelnormal, i made my original post about not loving my wife anymore after a particularly heated argument and a couple of drinks, so it was over the top, hence wanted to clarify the 80% {if you can put a percentage on these things}.

I guess this really is a roller coaster of emotions all round. Nothing can change what I have caused and i guess only time can lessen the pain. So is it therefore better to work at it and try and get it back {which in some ways would be for the sake of the kids} or best to split as amicably as possible and both love the kids more than anything in the world, but as a seperated couple?

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GeorgeBaker · 13/09/2010 16:51

solidgoldbrass, no she wasn't, it was a year of drifting on both our parts, but mostly caused by my stress, pressure and more recently depression.
you're right i still made the decision to follow up the OWs advances, i was mostly of sound body and mind.

however on your last comment, you're wrong, i have the ultimate respect for women and, on the whole, treat women and people with respect and decency.

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WhenwillIfeelnormal · 13/09/2010 18:29

George, yes I have known of many affairs happening after somebody has slipped into depression. Some people are sceptical about this, because unfortunately, it is often used as an excuse to explain away the distancing I mentioned earlier - and so a person denying an affair and claiming depression instead, often elicits sympathy and understanding from a spouse. Finding out afterwards that the problem was mainly the affair - and not the depression - can make deceived spouses very angry about what has been called "the depression ruse".

However, you have a clinical diagnosis, yes? I will find an article to post on here that may help you, plus add some words about its author.

I will say this in the hope it will help.

When someone is feeling low and down about other aspects of life; perhaps they have hit a "ceiling" at work and have suffered disappointments there, or they are feeling old/ out of potential/not as attractive as they once were, the arrival of an admirer can have a catastrophic effect.

This person suddenly boosts your ego and tells you you are wonderful, funny, admirable, worthy of respect - and enormously sexually attractive. It becomes intoxicating. If this woman had appeared on the scene when you were feeling full of esteem and energy, she perhaps would have not been able to have the same effect.

I wonder whether when this woman started doing all the above, you were comparing her with your wife's attentions towards you, which like many marriages with DCs, would have been focused on their needs and keeping the family show on the road, with all the organisation that entails? Already, your wife was disadvantaged and on the back foot, just as you would have been if someone had loomed on the horizon for her. I expect by that time, you weren't giving very much to your romantic relationship with your wife at all.

If your wife was trying to keep the family going and dealing with a down, moody husband, I imagine that she wasn't showering you with compliments and affection and was getting nothing much from you. That's perhaps why it felt as though the marriage was running on empty.

I would be astonished if, once you'd become addicted to the OW's attentions, you didn't start to find fault with your wife and behave badly at home. It might help me to understand too, if you answer some questions. Did you think you were compartmentalising the two relationships, or did you find the deceit stressful? Did you find it difficult to have an emotional/sexual connection to more than one woman and consequently, you shut out your wife?

From everything you've said, I think there's a strong likelihood that you will recover 100% of your former feelings for your wife and that they might even get stronger than they ever were, but that is if she is willing to give you a chance. From her point of view, I imagine that her decision is blighted by the utter devastation caused and I'm afraid it makes it significantly worse that you had an affair with someone she has to see in the playground - and who lives in your community. She will feel that she has been made a fool of - and that certainly muddies the waters.

If I were advising her, I would ask her to examine whether she still loves you and would ask her to do the maths. Prior to your affair, were you a loving and supportive husband? Was this an aberration in an otherwise kind and decent man? I would counsel her to insist that you got some solo therapy (delighted incidentally, that you are) and I would tell her that until you had got to the bottom of why you were unfaithful - and had resolved never to be unfaithful again, she should not be declaring that she will try again.

Now that the affair is over, you are seeing the OW with clearer eyes. You are also seeing your wife's qualities again, but you've got a way to go on the latter. You need to see her as a woman with sexual and emotional needs of her own and you need to invest heavily in your romantic partnership.

You need to start giving far more than you will get (for some time) from your romantic relationship with your wife. Her self-esteem will be on the floor right now and what ever you decide to do in the future, you need to build that esteem right back up. Many people in her situation feel erroneously to blame and it is to your credit that you haven't done that.

But for as long as this affair went on (including the pre-affair build up) I'd bet she was feeling very unloved and unattractive - she will have sensed your distance. This will have worsened on discovery. However high her esteem was before, she will be looking inwards, wondering "why she wasn't enough for you."

Added to which, there is so much nonsense peddled about affairs, she will have heard ill-judged comments about her sex-life and that it was somehow her responsibility to prevent you from straying. It isn't logical and it doesn't make sense, but so many people believe that affairs only happen in unhappy marriages, she might be feeling utterly bewildered.

You're going to learn some new things in your therapy, but the biggest lesson for you here is that your infidelity was caused not by your marriage and not by your wife's behaviour - but by your response to your own feelings of low self-esteem. This was all about you and nothing else. The affair partner briefly jolted you out of these low feelings and for a time, you felt alive again and full of vigour and adrenaline. But it was a chemical high and had a terrible side-effect, making your life far worse now than the depression ever threatened to.

I would urge you to reflect on all this and see if any of it resonates. If it does, sit your wife down and the first thing you need to do is to tell her how truly sorry you are - and mean it. Not sorry for getting caught, but sorrow for ever having an affair and treating her so appallingly. Take full and complete responsibility for it too, although you might both acknowledge that the OW's behaviour in all this merits disgust too.

Having said your piece, really listen to your wife and get her to tell you the story of the affair from her perspective. You will wince if she is being honest with you, but you will have to take it on the chin.

I've got lots more I can help you with and I will send you that article, but for now, I want you to think all this through and tell me what you think.

I do think there is hope here - if your wife can start a path to forgiveness and if you work out whether this had not much to do with your marriage or your wife at all.

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WhenwillIfeelnormal · 13/09/2010 18:35

George, the article I mentioned is

here

It is by Dr. Frank Pittman, a leading US psychiatrist. He has some interesting things to say about depressed people and affairs - and also the emotionally retarded male in love. You might just recognise Spiderwoman too...Wink

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GeorgeBaker · 13/09/2010 19:55

Whenwillifeelnormal, can I ask are you a counsellor? You have hit the nail on the head in so many ways. I should be paying you and not my counsellor!
Yes my depression is a clinical diagnosis.
Without getting into details its related to stress and some unresolved issues from before.

DW didn't believe but does now believe it is depression, but doesn't accept that it can lead to an affair, which is fair enough.
You are right it was an ego boost and was intoxicating and a distraction from everything else and once I knew that this person was interested me, i fuelled the situation and went out to seek more attention and ultimately decided to take it a stage further.

I was a down moody husband, which made my wife more off with me and so the downward spiral begins. I did find the deceit stressful, it was exciting i guess but not in a way that particularly made me happy. Have to say at this point, it started with me responding a little to flirting, which went on only for a few weeks, then it escalated very quickly and the 'affair' itself only lasted for a week {with a few follow up emails, one of which was seen by DW and the whole thing was then discovered}.

Yes she is devastated and the closeness {kids at same school} makes it so much worse. She does feel betrayed completely and has a reminder of it every day {not that they see each other every day, but the thought of seeing her is as bad}.

Yes she has said why wasn't her and the kids enough for me. Its hard to explain that, because they were and no-one in their right mind would set out to hurt their kids, especially. But in all this, i've tried to explain that yes she was down on me and was going off me as a person and lover in the last year, but that I don't blame her for any of this at all. I had given her every reason to be pissed off with me. She had tried to snap me out of my low feelings, but i didn't open up to her about just how low I was and sought the attention of someone new to somehow try and make myself better about life.

I have sat down with my wife and tried to explain all this and how my depression led me to do this; she still doesn't see that depression can lead to an affair and i guess because of the closeness of it all and the daily reminder makes it more personal. It is still so raw of course and she is still naturally very angry and confused and going through the whole range of emotions.

Thanks for the article. I'll read it now.

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AnyFucker · 13/09/2010 20:09

christ almighty, WWIFN, you are bloody good

< looks on in shock and awe >

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WhenwillIfeelnormal · 13/09/2010 20:53

Thanks George. I wish I could help your wife understand some of this. I can imagine just where she's at. I'm hoping that if this is helping you, it might help her too.

No, not a counsellor, just someone who's been in your wife's shoes. Because my H was very open and went to therapy himself - and we did and still do, a LOT of talking, I am able to understand the type of affair you describe. We've both done a lot of reading about infidelity and understand so much now - and are able to challenge some of the myths about infidelity.

You might want to keep this as a safe space for now, but at some point it might be worth showing your wife some of this thread and some others about infidelity. You will have to explain to her about the anger in your first post, too. I say show her some of this thread, because I note that some of the myths about it all are being repeated by some posters - and that won't help her much right now.

The more you write, the more I think I understand this. One of the biggest myths about affairs is that they arise when the unfaithful party feels they weren't "getting enough" from their primary relationship. Invariably it turns out that in fact they weren't giving enough. This also becomes circuitous in nature. You weren't giving enough to the romantic relationship, perhaps you were being lazy and selfish too and all these things were made worse by your depression.

From your wife's point of view, she no doubt felt hugely resentful. This made her desire you less and less and because she was picking up so much slack in the relationship, she was probably very tired and stressed herself. At least some of her anger will be because she carried you for a long time and this is how you've repaid her. This is understandable and righteous anger.

One of the things that might help her understand affairs a little more is to reverse the roles. At the point when you were mooching around the house in a depressive state, how would she honestly have reacted if an attractive man had started wooing her? She might say that she wouldn't have have had an affair, either because of her moral code, the impact on the children or even because she couldn't be bothered, but she might acknowledge that she would have been sorely tempted and at least flattered and boosted by another man's attentions.

I'm glad she accepts your diagnosis, but hopefully the article will demonstrate that for many depressed people, they have "flatlined" into a kind of deadness. The effect of an admirer or a potential affair is often more potent for the depressed person, because the high is greater.

Everyone reports that an affair or new relationship induces feelings of being alive again and all senses seem to be heightened. Going from flatline to such a high is always going to be more intoxicating than it would be for someone whose mental health is intact.

Research has also shown that individuals with bi-polar disorder are much more likely to have affairs, because they provide an early "high" when someone is in a "down" phase.

Now none of this is an excuse and there will be other factors about your character and pesonality that led you to infidelity. You need to resolve to find out what they were.

I do hope your therapist is being challenging enough with you and helping you to see what this was all about. The challenge now is for you to process all this and communicate it to your wife.

Have you considered writing some of this down in a separate letter to your wife? If she reads that you are taking full responsibility and keep telling her over and over again that this wasn't her fault - and explain why you think this happened, the more she reads it, the more she might start to believe it.

I completely understand why she feels the last 10 years have been a sham, but by all accounts they weren't - you were happy together for 9 of them and the only reason it all started unravelling was because you started to unravel and you didn't tell her how bad you had become.

One of the best things we ever did as a couple was to review our whole marriage up to that point; it was 24 years worth when we did that. We were able to see that we had been very happy for most of those 24 years but that my H in particular, had been happier than me, throughout. This stopped any notions that the whole marriage had been a sham. You have to have been through this to understand why your wife feels like this, but help her to see that this is erroneous. That her marriage was good, until you hit your personal crisis and excluded her.

At the moment your wife is in huge pain and this will go on for a long time afterwards, but right now she is liked a wounded animal and no doubt lashing out in her pain. It might be difficult to see her as a beautiful, sexy woman in all this, but my goodness if you want her back, you are going to have to cut through any defensiveness and start seeing her as a prize again.

One of the things my H said to me in the early days was that throughout our relationship, he had always felt he was "punching above his weight" and he admitted he then got complacent. One night he was crying his eyes out and saying that he couldn't believe that he'd been unfaithful to me when it should have been the other way around. We've moved on so much from that way of thinking now, but I have to say, he did everything in his power to raise my self-esteem - and I knew that he meant every word.

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GeorgeBaker · 13/09/2010 21:28

Dear WWIFN,

Receiving your advice is the exact reason I posted on mumsnet in the first place.
I was expecting alot of flak from the mumsnet community, but thought that it was worth any flak to be able to find a gem of a person like you who could offer such good advice.
Thank you.
I'll reread your last few comments and the article.
I have already starting drafting an email to my wife; we have been speaking loads anyway, alot of it has been shouting but at least i guess we are communicating in some way.

Thank you again.

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AnyFucker · 13/09/2010 21:36

GB, I don't take back my earlier harsh comments but I want to wish you luck

WWIFN is brilliant, and you are lucky to have her here

However, as part of this process you seem quite resolved to go through, please please please make sure if you stay together with your wife that you do it for the right reasons

that you love your wife and cannot imagine life without her

without her

not the children, although of course they count

because that goes without saying

if you don't think you can do that and mean it, you should set her free and make a fair and sensible co-parenting arrangement with her

but most of all, I hope your wife is ok, and that she can get past this with some self-esteem intact with, or without, you

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GeorgeBaker · 13/09/2010 22:24

anyfucker, thank you. your comments weren't harse, its the least i expected to be honest.

i do love her, its been a tough tough year and we have both grown to not like each other and lose some respect for each other. again i apportion the majority of the blame to myself.

my wife is in shock still really, its out of character for me and not something she expected i would do ever. the daily reminder and that fact that plenty of other people at school now know and are talking about it doesn't help of course. she has a great family and support network around her, which is helping keep her strong. I have mumsnet.

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gingerwig · 14/09/2010 00:21

WWIFN you have gone straight to the heart of George's "type" of affair ( It seems, if I am not mistaken , similar to your situation )and have given wonderful, non judgemental advice. I am going to print it out for future reference - but hope I never need it Confused

The article you linked to is brilliant - funny but straight talking. I loved the bit about being at crisis point" but not ready for suicide."..and along comes OW or OM !

George I wish you well.

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celticfairy101 · 14/09/2010 00:36

Excellent advice WWIFN.

George. Good luck.

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WhenwillIfeelnormal · 14/09/2010 01:57

Thank you George and all subsequent posters. Primarily, I hope this helps George and his wife and it is wonderful to see you realise George, that you do love your wife - enough, I hope.

However, as a side issue, if I can get people who have in the past believed that affairs only ever happen in unhappy marriages, to challenge their thinking, it would be just wonderful. It is you see, one of the most hurtful myths of all. Sad

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GeorgeBaker · 14/09/2010 09:42

Actually, DW has told me this morning that she doesn't want anything more to do with me, that I can see the kids occasionally but can never come back to her or into the house.
We spent a weekend of talking loads and thought we were getting somewhere to understanding each others position, but the hurt and bitterness is too much I think.

WWIFN, i will send that email anyway.

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AnyFucker · 14/09/2010 09:49

Listen to her, George

Perhaps a day at the school gates being looked on as an object of pity is too much to bear

It would be for me

I couldn't get past it

I would never let any man reduce me to that (pity is the worst emotion to have levelled at you, IMO)

Perhaps your wife feels the same

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GeorgeBaker · 14/09/2010 10:08

Yes you're right, she doesn't want people's pity and most of all doesn't want to be the talk of the school, its totally understandable.
The OW is going around happily talking about it and twisting the story to say it was all my fault, i pushed it all to happen. Ok i'm not an innocent party, but it's a total distortion of the truth. But of course this adds to the sense of distrust that my wife feels as now she feels she doesn't know what the truth is.
Again understandable totally.

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littlecritter · 14/09/2010 10:15

George, I'm going through what your wife is going through right now. She's trying to come to terms with the fact that you have rewritten her past and her future. It is the most terrible feeling. I could cope with the infidelity but not the lies and deceit that went with it. OW was also a family friend so I know how she feels, I really do. I have also just told my partner that I will never have him back and I really mean it. Your wife is in a great deal of pain at the moment. The only thing I want to hear from my xp is how sorry he is. He could say it a million times and it still wouldn't be enough. Please keep showing your wife how sorry you are even if she doesn't want you back. Show her that you care for her as another human being even if she doesn't want to be with you as a partner any more. Don't be motivated by achieving your own goals (not saying you are) but she might start to trust you a little bit if you can prove that you care about her in a completely selfless way.

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AnyFucker · 14/09/2010 10:18

George, this is not a hostile question

Does your wife use MN, or has she ever ? Does she know you are posting here ?

Is your MN name anything like your real name ?

FWIW, the OW sounds like the worst kind of person to throw a marriage away for. How very stupid you were.

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talleyrand · 14/09/2010 10:23

george - what do you think would have happened if your wife hadn't seen the email?

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