Dodgy estate agents? How to proceed?

[unavailable]

I need some advice and know there are several regulars here who would have a much better idea how to proceed than I do...

In the spring we put in an offer on a house and it was accepted. We paid for a survey, and verbally agreed that we were looking to move in August. The survey brought up an issue about windows but were still keen to resolve and go ahead with the sale. Out of the blue, just before we were ready to exhange contracts, we were told by the vendors EAs that the vendors had decided not to sell and the house was taken off the market.

I have found out today - purely by fluke that the house was sold on 5th August for the same price that we had offered! I am so cross. It was so upsetting at the time and I am regressing back to that now!

I know that the estate agent's code of practice does not allow them to accept a second offer without going back to the first prospective buyer, so if they knew (and I cant see how they wouldnt, its a small town) we could put in a complaint. What I need to know is how I can confirm if the sale of the house was through this estate agent.

I am on a mission against injustice! Please help.

I'm not an expert and I hugely sympathise as I've been involved in a sale that fell through due to a combination of mad vendors and dodgy estate agents (not the ones we were immediately dealing with but further up the line).

Having said that, I think tbh I would let this lie as it might be very difficult to prove there was wrong-doing, and I doubt it would get you anywhere in the long run. Far better to just move on and try to forget your frustrations - this is only going to prolong your annoyance.

Also, even supposing the offer did go through the estate agents, and was put in before your vendors withdrew, I'm confused about why the estate agent would have done this, and what they would have gained by it? If the sale was to go through at the same price you were paying (or even very near it) they wouldn't have got any more money, so why would they risk an almost firm sale?

Far more likely that the vendors changed their mind or sold to someone they knew. Estate agents usually want to pocket their commission and move on, not play sill buggers for the sake of a few pounds of commission.

Are you out there ABetadad? You are wise on property issues

Sorry - x posts the young visitor, i wasnt ignoring you

Is it possible the vendor sold it privately to a relative? Maybe the EA was not involved?

I have seen several houses where this happened. In effect the vendor just uses the marketing process to find a fair value and the relative the buys it at that price. It happens sometimes when several relatives each get a share of a property in a Will and they agree to sell out to one of the relatives using the best offer as the price.

If you really want to pursue this then a call to local Trading Standards might be the best place to start with a phone call.

wow! As if by magic, that was impressive appearance abetadad (are you like those djinn that you have to say their name?!)

That's kind of what I meant by the vendor selling to someone they knew.

I'm almost sure the vendor must have been behind this decision.

It just seems incredibly unlikely that an EA would instigate this - the only thing they could possibly gain from it would be if they could drive up their commission by playing the two interested parties off against each other, and they couldn't achieve that by sending you packing. It would be in their interests to try to instigate a bidding war, not pull out without explanation.

unless I suppose the Estate agent were taking a backhander... but then in that situation why would the vendor agree to drop a good sale and start over again?

Do you know the new buyers at all?

I remember this - was it a listed property and the vendors were difficult all the way through? I think that your perfectly justified objections to the windows upset them and they decided they wouldn't sell to you under any circumstances - they sounded crackpots. The EA was probably trying not to upset you by telling you that and said they had decided to withdraw the property. As theyoungvisitor said, there wasn't any motive for the EA to muck you about, it will all have stemmed from nutty vendors.

Thanks. No we dont know that the EA was involved. I agree that it they would have little to gain. The house was marketed even after our offer was accepted, and when I queried the vendors committment with the EA, he told me he had "known Mr X for years, and could vouch for his straightforwardness". I do think that if the vendors had intended to sell privately they would have chosen an agent they didnt know personally.

Yes lala - tis the same (you have a good memory!)

But if the EA didnt know, wouldnt they have a claim against the vendors regarding a private sale when it was being marketed by them?

"I think that your perfectly justified objections to the windows upset them and they decided they wouldn't sell to you under any circumstances - they sounded crackpots."

This exact same thing happened in a chain I was in a couple of years ago. The people above us in the chain tried to haggle over the survey with their vendors (as you do) and the vendors (who were about 90 and hadn't moved for about 70 years) MASSIVELY took the hump and just said they were not selling to these people under any circumstances. They refused more money, more time to consider, everything. They just said their didn't want these people living in their house.

There are a lorra nutters out there, sadly. Most of them selling houses, or so it seems .

Oh yes, they were very odd people with the dodgy windows that you might have had to cough up to replace. Why on earth do you care about it?
[GrendelsMum is possibly being overly frank]

But people do do the most bizarre things - we offered on two houses for the inhabitatnts to decide not to sell after all.

Its because we were lied to, Grendel. I know that when you pay out for solicitors and surveys you are doing so at a risk of the whole thing falling through, for one reason or another, but..
In this case, we were told thay had decided to withdraw the house from the market because their circumstances had changed and essentially they couldnt afford to move. It was a blatent lie, and I really want to know why.

unavailable - just a lucky hit.

Ah yes the windows. I remember this now.

I suspect the vendor just found another buyer who was not aware/bothered by the window issue and they just sold to them at your offer price. Its as simple as that.

Did you set conditions on your offer? If so, and the other buyer set no conditions then their offer was termed unconditional and the vendor went ahead with that unconditional offer.

the thing is, you'll probably never find out. Even if you put in a complaint.

They might be nutters.

They might have lied to their EA so that they could take the property off the market and accept a private offer.

They might not have liked you but wanted to spare your feelings.

Their circumstances might really have changed, then they might have done their sums and realised they needed to move after all.

I doubt that putting a complaint in will get you any real answers - you'd be much better putting that time into finding a fabulous new property.

Abetadad - Yes I think the windows swung it! But the estate agent codes of practice stipulates that we should have been informed of any other offer.

I know you are all right - I should just let it go learn from the experience, but I may need a day or so to get a proper perspective! I'm still in foot stamping "its not fair!" mode.

"But the estate agent codes of practice stipulates that we should have been informed of any other offer."

Not if they pulled out of your sale before hearing about and accepting the other offer.

It's possible the EA just said to them "if you want to walk away from these buyers I've got other people interested".

They often won't let people make a formal offer in those circs, but will store up expressions of interest for just these circumstances.

If they didn't accept the 2nd offer until after they'd pulled out of your sale, I don't think there could be any obligation to inform you.

And it's not fair, and it's incredibly upsetting when you've spent £000s on surveys etc with nothing to show for it.

But if you haggle hard, then having the other party walk away to a better offer is the risk you take.

By the sounds of it these other buyers were prepared to offer your asking price AND live with the windows. Would you really have wanted to offer even more?

Ok - they walked away from your offer without giving you right of reply. But in your shoes I'd try to look at it in a positive light - maybe you were spared a costly bidding war, ending up with you paying more for the house than you wanted and having to pay to sort out the windows.

I have totally got over the house we lost last year. I just see it as not meant to be. It wasn't "our" house. There's no point in adding hours of angst to the large sums of money we lost .

Thank you theyoungvisitor. You are helping with that all important perspective thing!

I still want them to know we know, just to make them feel uncomfortable, iyswim. Give me a bit more time, and I may drop this too!

ah well, I've got a good year on you

Think of it as the seven stages of grief, you know: shock, denial, bargaining, guilt, anger, depression, hope and acceptance.

You are obviously at still at anger. I have now come out into hope/acceptance after much therapy chocolate.

unavalable - I think to be honest you may have been spared a costly headache. My experience of these types of properties is of older vendors simply not maintaining them and once you are in the windows would have been the least of your worries. Had exactly the same experience as theyoungvisitor of older vendors taking umbrage that I dared to offer less than what their asking price was (despite the house sitting on the market for years) and for daring to point out a house needed more than a £100k of repairs. One even sold for less than I had offered!

Time and time again I find old people living in listed property that has been run into the ground but refusing to accept it needs a substantial amount of work and I mean real structural stuff not just a painting.

Put it down to experience but the whole business of having to pay for a survey and then have the house pulled off the market is mad in this country. The Govt ducked the issue with HIPs introduction in the end but in my view there should have been a mandatory buyers pack, with a contract in ready to sign plus full survey and local authority search paid for by the sellers.

That would weed out the sellers who are not serious and speed up the process imeasurably but of course EAs would have had to work for their money then.

The plot thickens ... I have now dicovered that the person who did buy the house was an employee at the estate agency - can't let it drop now

But unavailable - I am not sure what you stand to gain by this or what you are hoping to achieve.

Be honest with yourself - why are you pissed off? Is it just because they found a better offer? Or because they gave you an excuse when pulling out? Would you really have wanted to pay more, even if they had chosen to play the new buyer off against you?

I am sure if the new buyer was an employee they would have done everything by the book, as they know it will look dreadful if anyone flags it up.

Probably the EA said to the owner "I think if you want to pull out then I think you can get a better price from someone else."

Well - it turns out they were right. But if you'd told the vendor that you weren't prepared to up your offer (looking at your previous thread it looks like you were fully prepared to pull out if they didn't reduce the price or sort the windows?) and if the employee only put in a formal offer AFTER your sale fell through, I can't see what anyone has done wrong.

I know you are pissed off that your sale fell through - it's deeply annoying. But the bottom line is - you told your vendors you weren't prepared to pay the price they wanted for the house, and they chose to walk away. That's irritating but NOT illegal.

I'm not saying don't complain exactly - but I think you could be letting yourself in for a big headache with no tangible benefit to yourself or anyone else.

theyoungvisitor - I am angry becuase the EA lied. Not just at the time, but when I first spoke with them this morning. In that conversation I asked directly if the EA was involved with the sale or if it was a private sale. She told me it was a private sale, although the buyer had initially expressed an interest through the EA but had not been in a position to proceed. I then asked why they were not taking action against the vendors for breach of contract and she waffled. At the end of that converstion, she must have been aware that I didnt believe her and rang back some time later to say it was a coincidence that an employee was suddenly was in a position to proceed to offer immediately after the vendor had decided he didnt want to sell to us.

I do value your view, but I feel the EA has been dishonest on more than one occasion and their flustered reaction today confirms for me that they had something to hide.

I dont expect to gain anything other than an acknowledgement that their behaviour was unprofessional and unethical. I dont see why they shouldnt be challenged for telling clear lies.

You could go to the Estate Agent's ombudsman.

It is law to inform in writing to both parties of any offers made and the status of the offer ( conditional, rejected, et al). This will show on what date the 2nd offer was made. Your solicitor will be able to confirm that you were still progressing with the sale on that date. If the Estate Agent does not have copies of these letters then they have broken the law. It carries an unlimited fine and gaol for up to 6 months.