Lack of certificates :(

[thelastkingdom]

Certificates, Certificates, Certificates! At what point does a lack of certificates when buying a property begin to cause concern? We are buying our next family home and I am really surprised by the complete lack of any certification. Over time the property has had an extension - no building control certificate, a new boiler - not on gas safe register, wood burner - no HETAS certification, new windows and doors - not on FENSA, electrical work - no minor works certificate. The list is endless. My solicitor is recommending indemnity policies for everything which I really do loathe. I am worried that when I come to sell it myself these could be an issue for certain buyers. It's an older couple that is selling the place to downsize. I do have some sympathy, many times I have had to chase tradesmen for required certification on other properties - you really do need to know what to ask for as often you don’t get the certification unless you ask.

I would walk away. Sounds like an absolute headache, both now and in the future.

I would also walk away. Maybe for something small but not on an extension.

Its not so simple - we are looking in a specific location with specific requirements. In the last 3 years there have only been 2 properties in our budget that would meet our needs, this is the best one of the lot. Just frustrated with it all :-(

I wouldn’t risk it either. The vendors should have been aware that certificates would be needed and should have attempted to source them.

We’ve just bought and sold. Some certificates should be held by the local authority (building for example). If they dont have them then it’s a fairly simple process for them to issue them if your sellers are willing to sort it. I think the likes of building certificates are important. Other certificates not so, and could be covered by an insurance. I suppose it depends what’s a dealbreaker for you.

For the house we sold, we had building regs certificates but didn’t have one for each of our log burners - we just got someone out to issue them and it was very straightforward.

for the house we bought there was very little but we got a surveyor report and some indemnities and we’re happy with that.

I wouldn’t walk away. But I’m a building control professional, so I am much more relaxed about these things. Indemnity policies are worth absolutely nothing.

When were the notifiable works done? This is key to when various legislations applied. Also, you have to apply common sense. Recent structural works with no building control? Get the vendors to apply to regularise them. Decades old work? As long as the survey doesn’t highlight structural failings, I’d not be worried. Building control will not take action unless it’s extremely recent and or unsafe.

Have you had a survey, does it throw up any potential problems? If not what's the problem.

Not a chance I would risk this OP, we pulled out of our last home purchase for exactly this. And lots of people feel the same way so you could end up struggling to sell.

We also recently sold and purchased. The house we sold (rural Wales) was purchased by us as a repossession in 2018. There was therefore no paperwork or certificates for any work previously done, for example an extension built by the owner before the repossessed ones.

We renovated relatively diligently, as both previous owners had bodged everything, although we were able to 'rescue' the extension without the expected demolition, by having a new slate roof and oak-framed windows. Unbeknown to us, our builder was very ill and sadly died mid-project (we finished it ourselves during the pandemic), so there was no completion certificate and our buyers were happy with an indemnity for this as their surveyor (level 3/building survey) decided the work was carried out to a high standard. We did have HETAS certificates for our two wood burners, gas safe cert for the new boiler and structural engineer calcs/b.regs sign off for removal of a chimney breast and load bearing wall.

The house we purchased (coastal England) had no paperwork (deceased estate being sold by family), including for an extension built over 40 years ago, but we took the view that it had stood all this time without issues so chances were all was fine. Boiler was a similar age, but consumer unit had recently been replaced - again no certification. We didn't even bother with a survey (and haven't for our last five houses purchases).

The caveat was that we were cash buyers on both occasions and so were our huyers - perhaps if a lender was involved it would have been a different story.

I wouldn't necessarily walk away @thelastkingdom as - apart from this - the house sounds perfect for your requirements. If your surveyor is confident all is sound, I wouldn't be too concerned. Although I guess it also depends on how long you plan to stay at the property.....

Yes I believe they are trying to obtain those for the extension, it was 15 years ago though so not sure how easily they can be obtained.

Worthless paperwork but good if you can negotiate a small discount.

The extension was completed around 15 years ago, they are attempting to get them. My understanding is that before 2010 certificates might not have even been issued? The rest of the stuff is much sooner.

The problem is just lack of due diligence and selling it further down the line. Other posters have said they would walk away.

I wouldn't walk away if you don't think something else suitable will come back any time soon But I would insist on an electrical condition report, gas safety certificate and have a full structural survey.

I tend to agree to a point if one or two were missing but when there absolutely isn't any at all that has got me slightly worried even just from a re-sale perspective.

Can you get indemnity insurance and then sort things out down the line?

Some are more of a deal breaker than others for me.

No gas safe and no HETAS could potentially kill you (unless your plan is to rip them out- we built somewhere with no HETAS and got a discount as we wanted to put a wood burner of our own choice). No building control is a HUGE one., as you know nothing about the structural integrity of the building, and of any other corners had been cut.

I could potentially live with no FENSA/alternative scheme, and get the electrics checked, but would be wondering what else they hadn't done properly.

Overall, though: these things are usually in place for a reason. This many missing things (especially where some are held on a central register) is a situation where I would pull out unless you have plans to gut the place and knock the extension down.

The problem with that is, with building control, for example, the insurance is totally invalid the moment you notify them of anything. If there are any issues woth retrospective sign off you potentially have a massive bill to rectify work you didn't do, and nothing to cover you.

You also won't get anyone to certify anything (gas, HETAS) as it is as it's not worth their registration to say work by an unknown person to an unknown standard is safe- leaving you with a potentially dangerous situation.

When an extension doesn’t have a certificate that’s when you don’t buy the house. You can put right a fireplace without cert, or a window. A big expensive extension for parts of the house that you want to use to live in. Not unless the are willing to discount the property based on it being the size it would be without it

Surveys are done on the basis that work has been done to a standard that would be certified unless you get a structural survey where hidden parts of the house are viewable. It’s impossible for a survey to show whether the house has been built to safe standards as surveyors don’t have x Ray vision.

Can you get the hetas and gas safe checked and certified retrospectively? I would reduce the offer my the amount that would cost and ignore the other stuff.

I'd only be bothered about the building regs certificates, you can always have your own done for the other things if you're happy to pay for them. To me, that's down to the buyer.

Most gas engineers won't sign off retrospectively as they have no idea what horrors could lie inside (I have gas guy here today, looking at something and checked with him!). Same with HETAS.

If its the property you want then so long as you can get a good survey AND the relevant professionals to inspect the gas and wood burners I would say go for it

BUT I would look at knocking a bit off the price for the cost and inconvenience AND the potential for nasty surprises.

If you cant get the safety certificates for the gas and wood burners then take off the cost of redoing it

I would ask them to sort out the gas safety and HETAS issue urgently but leave the rest and ask for a small reduction in price.
DG windows have the manufacture date inside the frame so you can check age - if there's no date or over 20yrs old then they're overdue for replacement anyway. Ask if it's possible to do the electrical check now. A good indicator is looking at things like light switches/sockets - do they look 'old' etc.
As to the extension, I presume that a proper report on it was done by your surveyor? If you're that worried then get a structural survey done. After 15 years it's incredibly unlikely that the council will object to it's existence and in a few years it won't matter anyway as it will be considered a permanent part of the house footprint etc. Insist on an indemnity from the vendors just to cover yourself.

More importantly, if the house ticks the majority/all of your boxes then go ahead. If your surveys indict that everything is sound then you're not buying a money pit. Buying houses that have been occupied by elderly people for decades can be problematic as they're of an age where you didn't keep paperwork or they just lose it as time goes on. I presume that it needs updating anyway so I'd just absorb the work needed into everything else.