Survey back - roof spread / rebuilding walls

[kirinm]

We knew the house is a huge project but we weren’t sure what it was like structurally. It basically has lots of problems but the main one, I think, is roof spread which the surveyor thinks will mean reinforcing the roof and then rebuilding a flank wall.

I think we will have to get a report from a structural engineer but does anyone have any idea of how extensive that type of work is? Are we talking tens of thousands or thousands?

We’ve used this surveyor before and trust him. This is the first report I’ve seen where he’s been quite adamant that this work needs to be done in the near future. (Next 12 months).

You didn't buy at auction did you... sounds like the house we lost a load of money on which fell through.

I was mad we lost all the costs associated with a house falling through but frankly it did us a favor, the house would have been a nightmare to fix.

Structural engineer will be £1000+ and the cost then depends on what they say and what part of the country your in etc...

No we’ve not bought it yet. Not worried about the SE cost, more concerned about someone saying you need to rebuild half the house. Based in London so expecting the worst.

Not the house we where buying then as opposite ends of the country but being honest, with London tradesman prices I wouldn't touch it it will become a money pit very quickly.

@kirinm I would back out of this unless you're getting the place massively under the going price for the area and condition.
It's not only the work that will need doing, you'll have trouble getting buildings insurance in the first place and it will be flagged up on any subsequent sale if you were to purchase.

We would be getting it about £400k ‘cheaper’ because it is a mess of a house.

Do you know why it would be an issue for building insurers?

Sorry my brain has just engaged. Tell insurers because it is a structural issue?

I’m a surveyor and building engineering lecturer and I’m normally quite blasé about things that come up on surveys, but this could range from being an easy fix (eg if the roof just needs ties), or it’s something major like insufficient ridge beams or even foundations.

400k may sound adequate to cover it, but I’d want a proper structural design and quotation before I’d agree to buy.

We’ve passed the report to a structural engineer and will go from there. Are you suggesting that roof spread can cause damage all the way down to the foundations? Would there not be other signs other than some bowing (which is on the floor closest to the root).

Yes you'd need to tell the insurers. They might provide cover excluding landslip subsidence and heave for example. If you then went on to try and sell the new buyers would also have a problem with insurance, it's not just fix and that's it.
A full structural engineer:s report would be a requirement after the work is complete as well, I'd imagine, to satisfy the insurers. Not sure if you need a mortgage to purchase but it is likely to be an issue with the mortgagees.

This sometimes happens when an ignorant person cuts timbers out of the roof, perhaps for an open plan look or a loft conversion.

Occasionally it makes the house fall down (this is not a joke) so after the structural engineers report, you may need an architect as there might be lots to redo.

I hope you have lots of time and money.

Compare it to other houses you like that are in good condition.

Its rarely due to timbers being removed, its because most historic houses where not braced so never had the timbers in the first place. Lateral cross bracing didn't really take off until 1960 and wasn't a standard thing in new builds until the 1980s. historically the roof just rested on the walls over time gravity and re-roofing over loads the unbraced frame and pushes it down which in turn buckles and forces the walls outwards.

The mortgage company has already surveyed and we have the mortgage offer.

The cause is concrete tiles which are heavier than slate being put on the roof without the rafters being reinforced. The roof doesn’t need replacement just reinforcement. That in itself isn’t expensive. There is slight bowing of the flank wall at second floor level (immediately beneath the roof). This is the roof of the ‘rear addition’ rather than the original house

We shall see what the engineer has to say and cost the remedials (and insurance) - and go from there.

this is a very long term home and believe me, if there were other houses we could buy, we’d have bought them but the market is slow and extremely expensive.

Houses in a good condition here are closer to £1.5m (in fact some are now getting up towards £1.8m) and even then they’re all 120+ years old so never in a truly ‘good’ condition. They’re all old, on hills with London clay and susceptible to movement. Unfortunately.

Yes re-roofing slate with red clay tiles or concrete is the number one cause of roof spread, its much heavier than the load the structure was resigned for. Its why the issue usually starts not long after having a roof replaced.

You could look into Helifix solids wall ties. We looked into it but it really depends how badly gone the walls are. If you can just brace them to stop them moving more and stitch any crack then repoint it will be cheaper than a full rebuild of a wall but if its too far gone a 'fix' wont work.

We had a structural engineer go out and thankfully the surveyor got it wrong. There is no roof spread. There is an issue as the wall has bulged and therefore we can take action to prevent it from bulging any further - which is a few thousand pounds or, to get rid of the bulge, you’d have to rebuild the wall.

there is a possibility that the proposed remedial works don’t work and you are back to looking at rebuilding the wall.

My query is what to do about price negotiations. Do we say we have to factor in the risk of having to rebuild the wall even if it might not be necessary and knock some money off - even if that was say 50% of the potential repair costs? Is that reasonable?

If the vendor has any sense, they will say their price allows for any repairs or refurbishment that is required. And that if you can find a perfect house for the same price, you should go and buy it.

But try an offer, based on recent sales of comparable local homes.

The vendor has allowed the house to rot around them and they probably have no idea of the scale of work needed to fix it. They certainly won’t be aware of the bulging wall and what it takes to fix. If they are then they’ve not disclosed it.

The amount we offered to pay based on what we could see was a good offer. It is a wreck and needs to go back to brick. Unfortunately the survey highlighted issues that we couldn’t ever be expected to know. We then got a structural engineer to look at what is arguably the biggest issue and they’ve come up with a remedial scheme but with the warning that it might not work and the alternative is very expensive. Saying that it was priced to factor that in would be utter nonsense.