Reducing Our Offer (before exchange!)

[GoldenGoose16]

Am I being unreasonable?

We had our offer accepted on a house in July 2024, the terms of our offer stated we needed to exchange contracts by December. An elderly man with early onset dementia lives in the house and his son was looking to move him out into a flat. Things were moving at snail's pace, the sellers were very unresponsive and by the end of November we finally heard from them - little progress had been made with finding a new flat and they weren't willing to place their father into a care home/rent a flat for him. We were furious as we felt led up the garden path completely plus the EA said what the seller was looking for was unreasonable (crazy low price, no ground rent, etc.). The EA seemed very frustrated with the family and their antics, which says a lot. We didn't retract our offer but went actively looking at other houses, it was tough as Dec-March is the worst time of the year and very little was on the market that we'd consider. In April the sellers finally found a flat, their offer was rejected but luckily they ended up getting it accepted a few weeks later as the original offer fell through. For context, this was the only offer they submitted on a flat in that whole search period (7 months). We are now looking to exchange in about 2-3 weeks time. On our side, we had found two potential other properties but these didn't end up going anywhere due to issues like subsidence and probate (we wanted a clean, easy chain free purchase). We feel very frustrated with how slow the sellers have been, the lack of urgency and their dishonesty have not only rubbed us the wrong way but have cost us extensively. We have to pay £4K additional stamp duty as it rolled past April, we need to pay for new searches (as it passed 6 months), we have gone through x3 mortgages and paid premiums for some of these. We also had to extend our rental contract meaning increased rent for a few months. We don't think it's fair that we should have to incur all these fees plus the amount of time it's taken them to get their act together. The EA actually said this has been the longest sale he's ever had (almost 1 year!). We want to ask for a reduction of £10-15K which we feel is reasonable (and no doubt they will counter so we'll likely end up with less). It's a very small percentage of the overall house price (<2%). My partner is nervous that they might get upset and act in a reactive way but I personally feel the worst case scenario is they just say no. Additionally, a few houses on their street have gone on the market for cheaper asking prices than we anticipated (or have been reduced) and if they relisted the house tomorrow they probably wouldn't get the same offer we agreed - likely £10-15K lower. Am I being unreasonable to ask for this discount or is it justified? And when should I tell the EA that I want this reduction? I'm not being sly or trying to leave this last minute but I wanted to wait to see if this sale with the flat they're buying is actually going through (as there's been false hope before). All feedback welcome!

If you don’t ask you don’t get. Tho be prepared for a “no” or “We no longer are selling” or it going back on the market.
i personally would hate to pay over the odds on top of all that.

As a vendor I wouldn't think you are unreasonable to ask this, but I would me massively pissed off that you are waiting until exchange to do this. You have known for months that you will be incurring additional costs and presumably accepted this. You are now trying to twist their arm and do it right before exchange and I find that quite shitty. Don't get me wrong, what they did was equally shitty but you have appeared to accept it since you have decided to proceed. It's the timing of what you are doing and not the essence of it that I would find unreasonable.

That's a fair observation from the outset, here's a little more colour on the timeline: We were really devastated at Christmas time when what they'd done had sank in (i.e no sense of urgency with finding their new home). It took a little while to process (we are first time buyers) and even though in our minds we had come to terms with the possibility that we may have to move on from the house, we didn't outright say this to the EA as there was no point in burning that bridge until we had found a new house (but they knew we were looking elsewhere). I did mention to the EA in passing that if we didn't exchange by the SDLT deadline in April that we would be sharing these costs with the seller, they didn't seem bothered by the comment and it wasn't brought up again (at that time I think hope was dwindling that this deal would ever work out..) From Jan - April we were focused on finding a new house and spent a lot of time pursuing x2 alternatives which ultimately came up fruitless (one ended up having quite a bad subsidence issue and the other turned out to be in probate - we didn't pursue the latter as the EA and seller were acting dodgy and we had a 'no' feeling, the house is still in probate 5 months later FYI!). Then we found out they had finally found something but didn't think to start arguing about the reduction until we knew it had legs. They only raised enquiries last week so now that we know they have a financial commitment to this property is shows us they're serious and that's why we want to raise the topic of reducing our offer. We're not trying to strong arm anyone at the last minute but feel its unfair that we should shoulder these additional incurred costs that would make a huge difference to our renovation budget and timeline. We have been super patient with them and also extremely understanding and polite throughout the encounter and we feel the EA has empathy for us and our situation.

Try to take emotion out of it (hard, I know!). You don't know how hard they were looking for a flat. You don't know what's going on with the owner (moving someone with dementia is not straightforward). The fact that you had other houses you look at fall through/ not going anywhere is irrelevant to them/ this sale. As pp said, it was your choice to hang on - you could have bailed in November, when it became apparent they hadn't found a flat, and potentially have finalised another purchase before the SDLT change. This isn't their fault.

So, I really think the only thing you have to negotiate over is the increased SDLT (if you have in writing that they agreed to be out by then) and, potentially, the drop in house prices (if you can provide evidence).

Keep it factual. Keep it business like. Clearly present the evidence for the reduction.

And as others said, be prepared either for a 'no' or to walk away

It doesn't really matter to the seller that you see it as unfair. They have certainly taken their time finding a new place but it sounds like money is tight and the market for what they were looking for was fairly dead. It's an older person so they were never going to go into an airbnb for months etc. to let your sale go through. They were never in a hurry and it doesn't really matter that you told the EA that you were sharing the extra costs that you incur with the seller, they had never agreed to that.

I think that if you push this and word it so that it sounds like the seller owes you anything they will just find it all too complicated and decide not to sell to you. Are you OK with that?

According to the ons average uk house prices increased 5% in the last 12 months so you getting a property at its June 2024 price should be good news for you. I know this is an average, but if I were the sellers I’d say this to you if you started playing silly buggers at the last minute.

be careful…

It's perfectly reasonable to ask @GoldenGoose16 but you need to have a plan in place for if they say no. Will you pull out? Presumably you can do that as FTBs without messing anyone else about.

I wouldn't pay any heed to the ONS at present, especially not the average if prices in the same road are coming on the market for less than this one.

I’d be nervous if you’ve only seen two others that you like but couldn’t get them over the line. It sounds like despite others coming up for sale on the road there isn’t much else in your budget. If you lose this one what are your alternative options?.

You can’t really just say I want money off and expect them to say yes. You need to have a lever and it doesn’t sound to me like to do.

I would usually say no to gazundering but I think actually in this case where the delay has caused additional stamp duty there is some justification. Go in with your higher figure and hope to settle at perhaps half. Its worth a shot.

I think regardless of everything you need to consider that you have not actually found another house. You can of course ask for the reduction but ultimately you don’t have another option to go for if they say no and you want to pull out. I think you just need to decide if the house is worth it to you and at what price. This will be the only thing that would be guiding me if I was in your situation

From a conveyancing perspective you mentioned that the vendor has early onset dementia and his son was assisting with the sale. Therefore he would have had to obtain a POA to act on his financial affairs which can be a lengthy process. This would have added to the delay in the transaction. Additionally you mentioned that they are looking for a flat that presumably is suitable for the vendors condition now which may involve assisted living. Again those transactions are not always straightforward and there aren’t many to developments to choose from.
Leasehold properties also take a much longer time to get through the conveyancing process, so their enquiries would have taken longer as you mentioned (if I read correctly). Appreciate that this is from vendors perspective but it may had some food for thought.
On your side, if you ask for a reduction now you’ll still need to report to your lender, who may need to reissue you a mortgage offer which could take some time.
The other expenses such as your interest in other properties is not really relevant to the vendor. It was a personal choice to pursue alternative and it’s not really fair to pass on that financial loss to them?
I understand you’re FTB and it’s often the case that FTB get stuck when there is any form of chain. The only way to avoid this is to purchase a probate property as there will not be any chain.
Your solicitor should be regularly updating you with the progress and chasing the vendors solicitors for legitimate updates. The EA respectfully isn’t the best placed to give updates, they don’t understand the complexities of transactions and usually just need the exchange to go through as quickly as possible without ensuring all legalities are covered.
If you’re nearly at exchange and completion making a reduction is only likely to cause further delays.
All the best for your soon to be new home!

Just read that back, apologies for my typos / grammatical errors 🤦‍♀️
Is there an edit functionality?

On the other hand, whatever else they buy now they would need to pay stamp duty too. Nobody is lowering their prices to account for stamp duty. So either OP buys the house she wants and pays the stamp duty or she waits and finds another house and pay the stamp duty.

Yes but the increased stamp duty is as a result if this delay. I didn't say she had to walk away like others did. I said it's worth a shot and perhaps negotiate an amount of they won't accept the full drop.

But the only way to get this done is to go in and say they will need to lower the price or they will walk. That’s the only leverage they have. Anything else is just a waste of time.

Not always.

Sometimes honesty works.

The OP can say we are really upset that we have had to pay £x extra due to your delay so we are asking that you contribute towards this cost. They say OK then great. They say no way and you say oh well at least we asked. Invariably the seller may not want to start all over and risk not getting another buyer and drop £5k .

Am I right in thinking that the £15k you’re (reasonably) looking for, is against a house that’s worth £750k?

If so, while I totally understand the unfairness’s and the frustration, if you love this house, this isn’t worth quibbling over. I say this as someone who quibbled over spending £3k to fix a wall that our downstairs neighbours didn’t want to pay the half they were liable for when we were selling, it cost us double that for the amount of time it took us to resolve when we could have just paid it and sold quickly.

Tell the EA you want the reduction, see what happens. Don’t get too hung up on the numbers, in the end, this is the home you’re looking for, not an investment fund.

In all that time you’ve never found another house that you want to buy, or can get over the finish line.

Bear that in mind.

I personally feel the worst case scenario is they just say no

Nope. We’re selling a house at the moment, albeit under different and much less stressful circumstances than your vendor. If our buyers pulled this stunt 2-3 weeks before exchange, I would cancel the sale, put the house straight back on the market and I wouldn’t entertain any further communication from you. So that’s the worst case scenario.

Be prepared that’s what they may do.

Yes, I think a lot of people think that way. This should have been done as soon as you realised that you were going to miss the stamp duty deadline, by doing it now you are signalling that you have waited until you think they have spent money on their new place and that you therefore have a better chance of getting money out of them. They will lose money either way, either by giving it to you who they now don’t trust or they will pull out and lose the money they have spent on getting their new place.

I wouldn’t

But if you are going to…

1. Use the fact that you mentioned going halves on the increased stamp duty if the deadline passed. At least that’s not wholly out of the blue to the EA (though the seller may say no). Don’t ask for a contribution to extra rent as you could have pulled out (and would have, if the other houses had been good!)
2. Or - as FTB, is there anything in the house that might be useful to you, but unlikely to be to the seller if he is downsizing? Coffee table, large fridge, sofa etc - even if it’s a stopgap until you get your own. You could ask if these could be left as a goodwill gesture given your patience.

We’re going through a similar situation, but not as first time buyers. I have two uncharitable readings of the situation:

1. you’re trying to gazunder the vendors and looking for plausible reasoning to do so
2. you want to effectively punish the vendors for the inconvenience you perceive they’ve caused you

They’re obviously difficult vendors, with a lot going on behind the scenes which you’re not privy to. The worse case scenario with gazundering isnt them saying no, it’s them pulling the sale all together. Only try it if you’re willing to walk away, which it sounds like you’re not.

I think that morally it’s reasonable to try and claw back some of the costs you’ve incurred but I would not risk upsetting the apple cart at this stage.

They’ve delayed things. That hasn’t reduced the value of the house. It’s reduced what you want to pay as you’ve incurred costs. Arguably, things like searches and mortgage offers, are nothing to do with the sellers, you chose to do them rather than wait til they were proceedable. On the stamp duty you should have written it in that your offer price will be X if completes before April and Y if after.

I think it is very reasonable to ask for a reduction based on the additional stamp duty cost that has occurred because of their delay when you had agreed December. I’m not sure about mortgage and searches because one would argue that these things should not have started until the chain was complete.

The other issue you have is that they agreed a price to sell last year when arguably the market was higher (??) and have agreed a price to buy a place this year when the market is lower (??) and is that really fair on you? Do you think the property would be sold for less now?

Another point to mention is that the negotiation on price would not be last minute, they have only just started the process of buying the new place.

So in essence you had agreed a price based on completion before the stamp duty deadline, you had previously warned the estate agent that you want to share the additional costs if the sale does not make the deadline, you had almost given up on the property and started looking at others until out of the blue they have now found somewhere so you can proceed and as a result want your offer price to reflect the additional stamp duty costs (and possibly change in market price?).

I don’t feel this is sneaky and waiting until the last minute to gazunder, I think this is reevaluating after a house that you had given up on is now ready to be bought.

The other costs of rent, mortgage fees, searches etc are not reasonable to recover, but the stamp duty is.

If you are to ask for a reduction the amount must be rational and unemotional because you knew the purchase was not chain free and it would take a while for them to find somewhere when you initially offered but the delay has caused you genuine additional costs to purchase in relation to stamp duty, so you can only claim for reasonable costs (and possibly change in market value?) and not inconvenience I would say.

Like others have said if you really like the house it may not be worth rocking the boat as well.