Solicitor found out kitchen and bathroom does not have building regs

[Itsallsoboring]

Just that really. Victorian property. We were told by the seller that the house had a reno done in 2003. The bathroom was downstairs, behind the kitchen which is typical of victorian houses. The seller moved the bathroom upstairs and made the kitchen bigger as it could go into where the bathroom used to me. No extensions though. We knew about this at the viewings but assumed build regs were in place. The bathroom obviously needed plumping and rewiring etc. But now, it's emerged there is no building regulations approval nor sign off for any of this.

My solicitor is suggesting we request the vendor regularise the work i.e. they have it inspected by the council who will sign it off as to the standard for the time (2003 - not today). I think this would be best, BUT...

I'm not sure what to think of it. What if the vendor refuses? We haven't said anything to the seller yet about what we want.

What would you do?

I like the house but concerned about selling it in 5-10 years myself. If I feel like this, won't my future buyers?

It depends why.

We don’t have BC. I am sure a buyer would ask us to regularise. We would refuse as we know it wouldn’t pass (we work in a related field).

At the time our decision was to cut a door through an existing wall and have a 5cm riser or cost 60-100k+ more for the sake of avoiding a 5cm riser on a threshold. Due to 800sqft or wet underfloor heating needed to be wasted, manifolds needing to be moved, 3 sets of doors and windows at flush floor level needing to be raised and new slab poured to create it higher Even though the most of the original doors in the house have this level change so you’re not going to get from one side of the house to the other without having killed yourself from tripping up and suddenly decide this is the step you want to die on. So we are risking it as it’s stupid in this context.

As it’s existing remodel rather than an extension it could be something stupid like that.

Could you get an experienced surveyor you could use perhaps to have a look around?

The electrics are concerning. They should automatically have certificates by virtue of being done by a certified professional. If you have none for the whole house they probably were just haven’t organised the paperwork for the solicitor or have lost it.

Thinking of which we have our electric certs, yet I don’t think they are filed with anyone.

I would speak to them. See what they say. In our case pretty sure 99% vendors will agree they would rather have the step than no use of a perfectly good 800sqft once it’s explained to them.

Thanks for sharing your experience.

With my vendor, I have a feeling it was done more out of ignorance and not knowing to get this work approved and signed off. Only because the reno of both bathroom and kitchen are basic. But I could be wrong though, and wishful thinking. Either way, it doesn't matter the reason... the facts are is that they don't have approval and sign off.

I haven't sent a surveyor (L3) round yet, and even thinking about getting a structural engineer too, regarding the bathroom. But i don't want to waste money on this right now if I know they won't regularise the kitchen and bathroom.

I, too, am concerned about the electrics for the bathroom in particular. I could do an EICR (electrical conditions report) first and make a decision based on that, before sending surveyor and structural engineer round.

I'm just a bit annoyed that the vendor didn't reveal this earlier, as I could have looked into this a bit more deeply and made a decision that's right for my family.

It is a house that needs some (not total) modernisation, but I didn't think they wouldn't have BC approval and sign off. I just thought that would be something they'd have and I can move in and start my reno.

The problem is, I don't want indemnity insurance because it becomes invalid as soon as I submit my reno plans to the council anyway, so it's not an option.

I think this seller has got themselves in a pickle and I am considering pulling out.

Definitely send the surveyor.

I would also just ask them. Do they have BC sign off (as it might be through a private company and not registered with council) and if not why not?

Also what kind of refurb are you doing? If it’s a side extension popular with these Victorian houses you describe surely you would address any issues when you come to do it so it’s no problem?

This is very common for various reasons so just do some digging as to why without spending money first if you can.

Thank you. I think the surveyor is my best option too. Appreciate your response.

Btw, by any chance, do you know anything about wood fibre insulation and lime plastering?

Does it mean something dramatic like you won't get a mortgage based on the kitchen and bathroom not having building control sign off?

This, and the fact I am not assured of the safety. The vendor has no idea who even did their works - their partner organised all of it and they died a few years ago. I'm not sure how I feel about it but as someone else suggested, the surveyor is the best person to ask about it. Apparently, if you had reno works done pre-1985, the council won't check anything at all, but will recommend you get your own surveyor to look at the works.

The council can't sign it off against 2003 works. They can only do it against current regulations.

What safety wise are you worried about? It's been done for 21 years? Most places will have replaced kitchens and bathrooms. Very few will have sign off.

Will you be replacing anyway?

I'm not sure why it needs signing off now. It's over 20 years old. It's not an extension and doesn't need planning approval. If it's unsafe, there would be problems by now?

I mean I think the same as @SquishyGloopyBum. Surely you'll be planning to replace a 20 year old kitchen and bathroom? At that time, you can get your own qualified electricians and plumbers. I don't get certificates for kitchen and bathroom renovations either. It might be just me being ignorant, but they are just replacing a light with another light.

This wouldn't bother me as I have never bought a house that had nothing wrong with it, and I know that when I move in there will be cracks and damp patches and dodgy wiring that all need sorting.

I do generally get an electrician in very shortly after moving in and have them check everything is safe (even if it is not 100% compliant). I'd probably be more sensible to do it pre-exchange and then chip the price if the costs of remedial work will exceed an amount I am willing bear.

Thanks all. You don't need Building control approval for like for like renovations, but you do if you're changing the layout of the kitchen, moving plumbing and electrics - same with bathrooms. This is what i've found out from them.

I don't mind if there is no build regs as some owners don't know they need approval, what i do mind if if there is absolutely no paperwork at all.

you also need building regs if you're moving your kitchen or bathroom to another location, or changing a room into a bathroom e.g. bedroom into bathroom etc.

Did it need building regs 20 years ago for the type of work they had done? I’m only asking because I think boilers only needed building regs after 2005? And when did the latest electrical regulations come in? It may be that it just wasn’t current or possibly new at the time.

I work in BC and we get people Regularising work all the time when they come to sell their property so I would say just ask them to arrange a Regularisation and go from there.

Thank you. I would love this option, but the vendor is reluctant. Because it's a small bathroom and medium sized kitchen, what are the chances BS would want the plaster etc removed to look at the plumbing work? I guess an EICR could cover the electrics and fix any problems from there. Thank you.

Lack of BC didn't affect my mortgage on the first house I bought - check that that's definitely the case with your solicitor. Because if you're renovating anyway, seems a daft thing to get hung up on.

I've rejigged kitchens and you don't need building regs as long as your electrician and gas engineers are certified. I don't know about moving rooms though.

Hi SnowSnow. Do you mind me asking what would happen to us?

As far as we can tell it’s impossible to achieve sign off due to a threshold too high for a level threshold and too low to qualify as a step. In those circumstances what would happen? Could we get most of it signed off but not the door through or what?!

We would like BC sign off for all part which are compliant (everything else) but don’t know if it’s a one part fails the whole things fails scenario.

It sounds like a total non-issue to me. This is work that was done 21 years ago. And even now "building regs" is really just a matter of things like - were the electrics done by a certified fitter and signed off, was there a fensa certificate for any new windows/doors. Plumbing is only an issue if you make changes to drainage. But lots of this wasn't expected 20 years ago anyway. The only bit I'd be remotely worried about was if there was structural knocking through to extend the kitchen - and a survey will clear up if there's any signs of weakness.

Personally I would walk away. If they didn't follow the requirements, who knows what the quality of work will be like. You'll have hassle when you sell too.

@SwingVote i got an extension signed off with an approx 2/3cm rise between one room and the extension. It was signed off last year by building regs. The extension room was a store room not accessible from the house - the builders knocked through as part of the extension. I also had another signed off 10 years ago with a 1/2cm rise.

It’s 4cm 😭

The original thresholds in the house are all 3cm. So it’s not that different. But apparently not ok.

Apparently it’s 1.5cm max now!

Some pics of the new one in unfinished wood and the originals in dark wood.

That's why you get a survey done. Whether or not the work was done properly 20 years ago, the BC certificate wouldn't check for maintenance and many people would want to replace kitchens and bathrooms after 20 years. Electrical requirements etc have also changed in that time.

Yes, this is what I understood too. If you don't get BC, you can do this (during the build/reno or even after) to show that you have retrospective certificates to show all is safe. The main thing is to get certificates and if you do get BC involved later, they will at least know those aspects are safe.

Apart from ignorance, I'm not sure why people avoid BC. They're perfectly helpful.

Also, I think if the works was done a solid 15 years ago, BC will not pursue or do any enforcement action, for sure.

My problem is that the vendor doesn't have any proof it was done in 2003 so not sure what's BC position on it if i can't prove when the works was done..

As a buyer, I would not be worried about this problem you have as it's just a step. If I am being honest. You could send BC an anonymous email about the situation and see what they say? Don't give them personal details