New Build - overhanging TPO Tree - pics

[Oatflat24]

Hope someone can help.

In process of buying a new build. They are pressuring us to exchange/complete missives.

They went through all the site plans with us - their agent and site manager, just before Xmas and they mentioned there would be trees behind and that it was private land.

we thought didn’t think much of it as nice for privacy, but the pace has really picked up far quicker in past two weeks and they’re pushing to exchange!

We’ve not even see the plot properly. We had a sneak down on site - that was when we saw the trees, well one freaking huge tree (we know it has a TPO as they told us).

We found out the land at the back has a public bridleway running along it so got right up against the back of the houses.

The tree is enormous, and so close, they did not tell us this, but is slightly off to side so not that bad in terms of light if it weed to be cut back I don’t think?? Interested to heard others thoughts - we’re south facing garden.

But we can see it’s going to be as tall as the house and is right on the boundary line - what’s worse is that it completely overhangs the whole garden!

One rather large branch will come right over where the sun room is and over its roof!

Trees have been coming down left right and centre round here over these past two years as the bad storms have increased so we’re worried, but also how can we buy a house where the garden is totally over hung by branches - it’s the danger factor as well as light.

We told our solicitor - apparently it is not on any of the plans she has seen!

Spoke to agent who told us oh yes well when they get to your garden they will cut it back - so we said well they can’t without distinct planning as it has a TPO. Is that in place?

Site manager was called and we ascertained they hadn’t applied for planning currently and neither of them seem to realise how big it is.

Then they tried to say well your fence isn’t in yet so how do you know it’s overhanging but we can see by walking further up to where more of the finished properties are that the fence line pretty much matches up with where the crash barrier is round ours.

Where did we go with this - surely we can’t buy a property as it currently is, how easy is it to get landowners to cut invasive trees with TPOs back?? Is planning easily granted? Is it a dead duck?

A few things. Your biggest concern would be knowing what depth of foundations the house has. We have an oak tree around 4m from our house at the closest point and we have very deep (2m ) foundations. DH is a structural engineer. It’s our tree and no TPO. We do keep it on good condition.

We also have other trees nearby that we do not own and our neighbours are kind enough to ensure the branches do not overhang our house. Hoever the odd branch has come off and landed on our hedge. So you do need to be wary of this tree. Deciduous trees like oaks do provide welcome shade we find. We do have a large garden and they aren’t causing moss. Leylandii are the worst for that. We have a large garden and many trees of our own but don’t see them as causing issues in the garden. But I’m not just looking out on one tree.

Whet you can do might be limited though. A public bridleway is a right of way over land. It doesn’t mean the Highway Authority owns the land the bridleway is on. I live next to one. I own part of it where it crosses mine and my neighbour’s fields, another neighbour owns it adjacent to my garden and as you approach our house on it, it has no registered owner, yet runs between two gardens. If your tree has a TPO, the owner of the tree should be known by the council. Or who looks after the tree legally?

I would be in two minds about buying the house. Firstly are foundations adequate? Check building regs. Secondly , who owns the tree? Is there likely to be a compromise to be found regarding safety? Thirdly - you’ll get a hell of a lot of leaves!

If it’s designed correctly you will get insurance by the way.

@Oatflat24 have you checked your council’s TPO register? Is it definitely that tree affected? Definitely do NOT do what @PurBal suggests. Deliberately damaging a tree or felling one with a TPO is not just a huge fine (more than £10k) it is a criminal offence. You don’t need a criminal record over a tree. Often TPO’s are put on trees by locals trying to stop a build/planning permission so you can bet your bottom dollar that someone will be watching the tree and what happens to it…

I think your issue is several fold. The red boundary line on your LR title plan is not exact. It can be +/- 0.50m. The tree could end up being your problem if the land owner won’t deal with it and insists it is within your land. The tree itself causing a nuisance to your house either now or in the future is a civil matter, so dealing with it via a court process would be prohibitively expensive. As other pp’s have pointed out, you’ll own a garden which is unlikely to be useable and a house which will need specific maintenance because of the tree’s proximity to your house. The roots as a general rule of thumb will be twice the height of the tree, but oaks can take up to 7 times the surface area of the crown itself. You could end up with subsidence/collapsed drains etc in time to either your house or neighbouring ones. Then there is the matter of insurance, and once you declare the risk of the tree you cannot control, I would expect that any reputable insurance company will either exclude damage from the tree or make the premiums prohibitively expensive and only then after you’ve had to commission an expensive arborist report. You’ll have major concerns every time there is a storm and oak trees can suddenly uproot without much warning and given the work that has just been carried out within its likely root system, it could become unstable in the next few years.

Honestly? I’d walk away from the house now. I’m currently dealing with a subsidence claim at my house involving trees which is entering its 7th year. If anything does happen, Insurance companies will argue until the cows come home to avoid liability…It doesn’t seem like it now, but there will be other houses.

Thanks everyone for this. I’m just stunned that they’ve chosen to build properties so close to what is an enormous tree and that the council have granted the planning given everything people have rightly flagged re the roots and subsidence and drainage??

Interestingly if it is oak a Google showed that the safe distance for this is 30m

Also that it didn’t seem to be on the site managers radar?!?

Im not ‘too’ worried re insurance as we had very large trees - Scots Pine along the side boundary of our old rental they were less than 4m and insurance seemed fine. However we would obviously need to test waters.

We are having our solicitor look into everything and has told the developer we will not be moving forward until we have had a site visit and she has done her investigation.

I tried to find the planning app, and I can’t remember who said this but, yes, I know what you mean about tree reports being in there, however there doesn’t seem to be any of the usual documents available to view in any of the related planning applications for this development - weird!

Lastly and most interestingly….according to the council tracker there is no TPO on it?! I crossed referenced with a street I know that does have a tpo tree on it (it has the little metal badge on it and whilst we couldn’t get to see whole circumference of thr trunk it doesn’t look like the new build tree has one) so the tracker seems to be correct in that sense.

I am so gutted we have been renting since 2021 going for what are really nice new build houses seemed to be the last chance at buying something we can afford they isn’t falling to bits/needs major modernisation.

I feel very down about it.

• as pp have said, if there are any safety issues concerns (validated by a tree surgeon, not just what you've said in your op) or work needing doing for the benefit of the tree then getting TPO permission is not normally difficult

• they will want to tree doing as a whole so not knowing who the owner is nor their financial situation and willingness could make things very difficult

• I'd be concerned why it's not on any plans. Normally trees are marked out on site plans included in the planning permission. Have a look at the planning portal yourself. Perhaps talk to your council planning officer or tree officer

• you can't trust anything the agent says. For all we know they could be pushing for the sale before more of the building goes up and the tree gets its leaves

• much as I love trees, big ones near houses are a PITA (and obviously grow!). DF was in exactly your situation and it became a real issue. The tree owning neighbour refused to do any maintenance. The quantity of leaves to clear up was enormous. The grass under the tree turned to moss. All of which is fine if you have a large mature garden with tons of space, but probably not want you want right up close to a new build

@Netaporter When you build a new house you design for trees and roots. We have a 190 year old room near an oak tree and more modern parts of the house near other oaks. You do not automatically get issues from trees. What you do is keep them under control and design suitable foundations.

The Planning Authority must have a list of trees with TPOs on them. Notice of this must be given to owners. As it’s illegal to do work on a TPO tree without permission, so the owner must know about the TPO. Most councils, if they own it, won’t care about maintenance because they have no money. How far is the trunk of the tree from the house? Have you accessed the planning portal? Have documents been archived? Ask the planning department.

Im surprised a new build is cheaper than an already built, this is rare. Surely a house 20-30 years old would be possible and not needing lots of work?

I'd contact the tree officer at the council and ask them directly if they would be amenable to the branches being cut off. You can even make an application or make a conditional exchange based on the developer successfully doing the works.
However you also need to contact buildings insurance about the tree. I have a lot of trees in close proximity and I have to give height and distance of each. There are certain insurers who will either state restrictions or not insure due to trees. Check this pre exchange!

@TizerorFizz I know what is supposed to happen when houses are built, but often a cheaper route is taken….and I also live in a very old house. Fact is, trees which have not been looked after are an absolute nuisance. From the picture, this tree does not look like it has been pollarded regularly in its life. For a first time buyer buying from a developer, the OP needs to satisfy herself that all precautions have been taken.

@Oatflat24 I’d make the presence of the tree the developers problem to sort and a condition of exchange. If there is no TPO and you are not in a conservation area it should be relatively easy for them to sort. I know it seems disappointing now, but there will be other houses. And maybe elsewhere on this development?

This 👆

Also, you may find that your insurance will exclude any damaged caused by it if it falls as it is a known risk.

We have a few TPO trees, we asked to take down a huge sycamore and replace it with something more in keeping. They refused and said they never allow healthy trees to be taken down. They would have allowed a 10% reduction in height, if we applied, but that would make it look terrible, at least at the minute it is a nice shape, so we have left it alone.

Big trees also make a tremendous noise in a storm!

Insurance when renting will have just been for contents
For building insurance they usually want any trees between 10m declared

@Netaporter An old house has very different foundations from a new house. Building regs and a check on site should ensure foundations are correct. We actually get very little heave or subsidence in new builds! It’s usually older houses.

I too would take this back to the developer. Foundations should be designed to ensure you don’t get issues. Maintenance of the tree is another matter.

Huge field sycamores are awful. Totally out of place near houses. In fields they are fine.

Which side of the house is the tree? If to the north, it won't block too much sun, otherwise, your garden will be in shade for a good part of the day.

Bear in mind, you will need to pay for a tree surgeon to prune back every couple of years. Allow £1k for this work. The owner of the tree is under no obligation to co-operate. It looks like an oak tree, oaks have a habit of dropping boughs without warning, although they are beautiful.

You will also have birds, aphids, leaf fall, squirrels. Whether you think those are a plus or not is down to personal taste. If you are the type who frets about trees falling over in a storm you should probably choose a different house.

Before you make any decisions to pull out, why not get an arb report to try and ascertain the risk? You can find a reputable arb consultant (not tree surgeon) on the Arb Association website. It will cost you money but at least you’ll be able to make an informed decision about it.

Sadly, developers will often build very close to established trees and if the council planning team have not made them put root protection in place, it could have implications for the long term health of the tree.

Oh that’s a really good idea @Priminister

@Digimoor They definitely asked about the trees and when we said yes we had to answer some more questions. I’m still in touch with the landlord so ai might ask her how she went on because the Scots Pine were within 4 metres then we had some massive willows and birches at the bottom of the (very big) garden there which were within 10 metres

Okay getting somewhere in my research, I have found the original planning app with all the documents now and have found the Arb Report the developers had commissioned by an independent arborist.

@Priminister do you think I should try speak to them, do you think they’d discuss it with me? Maybe if not is our solicitor?

Anyway thinking this line in the tree report means there aren’t actually any TPO’s

Also whilst I haven’t unearthed who owns the land the trees are on it’s not local authority as the supporting statement on trees goes into detail about those owned by the council and that they can’t be touched without express permission from them and that these border the eastern border of the development - we’re to the South.

I think that as @twiglets may have mentioned on another thread about a different issue (flood risk?), whatever you are happy to accept, remember that you may/will have to sell this place on at some point. How will it affect resale value?

Protected trees are normally mapped on the LA's website. It's worth checking by postcode and seeing if it's listed.

Even if there isn't a TPO, it doesn't mean you won't have issues - if it's a tree conservation area, the restrictions can be just as tight.

Well done for finding that. That first point refers to trees within the site, and the second point refers to trees within and immediately adjacent.

I don't think you can infer from that that the tree in question doesn't have statutory protection because it is immediately adjacent rather than within the site.

What you do need to do is read up on what's written about the tree in question further down the document.

@wutheringkites yea I’ve done this posted how I got on with that further up but it isn’t listed but who knows how up to date. Defs not a conservation area - we know that for absolute certain.

@Lochroy

@Lochroy yup done that doesn’t look like it does - no mention of a TPO in the description….it is obviously one of the few healthy trees on the site tho isn’t it 🫠😩 tree in question is 4216 I’ve highlighted in blue the green denotes a healthy tree! But doesn’t look like there’s a TPO - will ask solicitor to get the absolute from the developers Sol.

Interestingly it looks like they’re proposing structured tree planting in front of it 🤣…..lord knows how there is no room?!!

I would not proceed with this if it were me.

Even if there is not a TPO (meaning you can cut down any branches overhanging your property, the main tree and its roots are still owned by someone else. There is nothing you can do about those without the owners permission.

And if it is a big old tree then a TPO could be slapped on it pretty quickly by anyone asking for it, meaning you would not even have the ability to prune branches overhanging your property without permission.

Big trees and houses in close proximity unfortunately do not mix.

I would check whether it definitely has a TPO and also whether the land with the tree is going to be told to a land management company like Greenbelt who are a complete nightmare. If this happens you’ll have an absolute battle of your hands trying to get them to anything and as well as an annual maintenance fee (for which they’ll do FA) they’ll charge you for anything over and above the bare minimum (like tree work).

I’d be tempted to walk away - there are too many uncertainties. Remember, they’re trying to sell a house, they don’t care what happens once you’ve signed on the line.

Councils tend to over-egg the requirements for planting schemes because they want it to look full quickly. But in practice the trees etc. are too close so don't survive. Saplings planted under mature trees are quite likely to die, they don't get enough sun or water.

But this tree is so close to the house that the planning permission should have said something about foundations.

It's also important to know what kind of soil you have. If it is clay, then there is often shrinkage when the tree sucks all the water out of the clay in summer - ultimately leading to subsidence. https://www.geobear.co.uk/clay-shrinkage-explained/ explains...