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Exchanging tomorrow. Buyers just pulled out

321 replies

Newhousename · 14/08/2023 21:29

It’s not about money apparently . They just went off the house. The night before. After five viewings and months of paperwork. &@£$**>%€

anyway. Trying to be practical. Does anyone have experience of those we buy any house type organisations? Please. Or any other thought that could help.

OP posts:
InvestingMimi · 17/08/2023 01:29

stephfennell · 17/08/2023 00:45

What?! What scumbags!
At least you get to keep the 10% deposit though. That should help make up the shortfall if you have to sell it at a lower price. Why anyone would walk away and lose their deposit is beyond me?!

Again no money changed hands the buyer pulled out before exchange which is when the deposit is paid.

stephfennell · 17/08/2023 01:53

Oh wow. In Australia we pay a 10% deposit on signing. If the buyer pulls out and won't settle the property the vendor can keep the 10%. That sounds incredibly unfair that you just have to hope the buyer will do the right thing.

CellophaneFlower · 17/08/2023 05:19

stephfennell · 17/08/2023 01:53

Oh wow. In Australia we pay a 10% deposit on signing. If the buyer pulls out and won't settle the property the vendor can keep the 10%. That sounds incredibly unfair that you just have to hope the buyer will do the right thing.

So do we. They pulled out before contracts had been exchanged.

hoophoophooray · 17/08/2023 07:33

ZeldaWillTellYourFortune · 16/08/2023 19:26

Once an offer is accepted, either party that pulls out should have to pay the other 10 percent of the agreed-upon sale price. That would nip some of these situations in the bud.

This would require all the due diligence to be done before the offer then surely?

In our current system this would require everyone who wants to even offer to have to do a survey, searches, full mortgage application without even knowing if the offer is acceptable.

You'd have to somehow convince surveyors / structural engineer etc to be prepare to indemnify anyone given access to a report they had written so the seller could do them and then pass them on. At the moment, only the person who pays for the survey is entitled to rely on it.

Our system isn't great, but changing it isn't as simple as saying "oh you must put down a 10% deposit". You'd have to be able to rescind for "good reason" and who would decide what that reason is?

ElizaAgainn · 17/08/2023 07:36

Sorry to hear this and I can well imagine you are "tearing your hair out" and sticking pins in wax dolls. Certainly society as a whole seems to be a lot nastier than it was in a lot of ways. I guess the best thing people can do is stick to the traditional way of "It's 4 weeks between Exchange and Completion" when it comes to buying and selling houses. I know some people go for it being quicker these days and say "Oh well it's possible in this day and age of the Internet etc". But that 4 weeks gives a degree of protection and organising time. The barsteward type of person is less able to "pull a stunt" of some description or other - knowing that the other party is expecting to finish the process in a matter of days or maybe even hours and therefore the barstewards do pull things like gazundering, gazumping, changing their minds, etc. That traditional 4 week period helps protect the innocent party - because everything isn't being done in a rush/last minute and therefore the barsteward can't apply as much pressure/muck things up quite so much if they start trying to pull a stunt. It also means people can do things like packing up at their leisure (ie won't find themselves with everything darn nearly packed - because of an expectation of moving hours or at most days after exchange). When I moved house fairly recently I just said "It will be that 4 weeks - end of" and it was. My buyer threw a hissy fit - but I presume they got told to back off on the grounds of "Oh...it's an older woman...she's old-fashioned. Better accept it and proceed". Estate agents/solicitors/etc on one's own side will obviously have a variety of other things they can tell anyone being "demanding" to try and cut that 4 week period down.

ElizaAgainn · 17/08/2023 08:08

This reply has been withdrawn

This message has been withdrawn at the poster's request

GasPanic · 17/08/2023 10:16

petmad · 16/08/2023 19:09

Totally different in france when buying, the buyer pays the seller a security deposit and has soo many days to come up with the remainder. If not the seller keeps the deposit and you as the buyer cant do anything about it. But id be peed off aswell.

What made me laugh is that far from it being "totally different" in France, it is in fact exactly the same as in England. You pay a deposit at exchange and if you don't come up with the balance by completion then the buyer keeps the deposit (or generally does depending on the terms of the contract).

It is worth noting that there is no restriction on how you conduct your house sale or purchase in England. Processes happen according to established practices, but if you as a seller wanted to charge a "reservation fee" before exchange to firm up buyers commitment there is absolutely nothing stopping you doing that. Whether you'd get many buyers taking you up on that is another issue.

GasPanic · 17/08/2023 10:19

hoophoophooray · 17/08/2023 07:33

This would require all the due diligence to be done before the offer then surely?

In our current system this would require everyone who wants to even offer to have to do a survey, searches, full mortgage application without even knowing if the offer is acceptable.

You'd have to somehow convince surveyors / structural engineer etc to be prepare to indemnify anyone given access to a report they had written so the seller could do them and then pass them on. At the moment, only the person who pays for the survey is entitled to rely on it.

Our system isn't great, but changing it isn't as simple as saying "oh you must put down a 10% deposit". You'd have to be able to rescind for "good reason" and who would decide what that reason is?

Exactly.

The best thing you can do as a buyer is get as much information on the house as you can before offer. These days it is easy to get hold of deeds to check stumbling blocks like right of access, check flood risk, check local development, check EPC, check council maps for TPOs etc. Check local domestic planning etc. Inspect house well.

It makes sense to do this before you start commiting to the purhase process because once you engage solicitors/conveyancers that is when it starts costing you money.

Toomuchtrouble4me · 17/08/2023 10:28

How does it work in Scotland.
it’s like pulling out the night before a wedding - how can you not know beforehand? !!!

Utereusbegone · 17/08/2023 12:21

Yalta · 16/08/2023 19:19

GasPanic
At the end of the day there has to be a point at which both parties make a firm commitment (currently in England that is at Exchange). There isn't really much way round that

Other countries manage it. A contract on agreement of price to buy if nothing untowards is discovered.

I think the home pack just added to the process rather than quickening it up. It would have been a great thing if it had come with a contract for the buyer to sign and pay a deposit on agreement of price as long as when the buyer did their own survey and searches nothing was materially different to the one in the home pack

If a political party decide to actually quicken this process up in a meaningful way I would vote for them.

Personally I think the commitment needs to go both ways, so if the seller pulls out there is also a penalty for them

GasPanic · 17/08/2023 14:22

Utereusbegone · 17/08/2023 12:21

Personally I think the commitment needs to go both ways, so if the seller pulls out there is also a penalty for them

About 1 in 3 potential sales fail between offer and completion (I suspect the % failing between exchange and completion is tiny due to the large penalty).

So if there were sort sort of reservation fee payable on offer then a significant fraction of transactions would result in that fee being payable to one side or the other.

The problem is when you think about it carefully it is really difficult to come up with a solution. Contract law is the way it is for a reason. Contracts are not binding until both parties make a formal declaration to make them so.

Any variation around this effectively produces scenarios where one or the other party could attempt to exploit the rules or act in bad faith in order to get money.

Ellyess · 17/08/2023 16:09

I'm so sorry. It happened to me. Just hold on and keep your Estate Agent working hard for you. Mine was so upset for me and my DC - my DH, their DF had died, he fought tooth and nail to sell my house.
Things do work out. They really do. Just hold on and don't despair.
Oh and it's ok to make a wax doll of the evil sods who did the unthinkable on you and poke pins in it.

Ellyess · 17/08/2023 16:22

Re manipulative people; On day of Exchange of contracts, I have a phone call from my Agent saying the Buyer says he had to drop his offer by £10K (in 1980s) as his house was not going to attain what he asked, or he'd have to drop out. I said no, and suggested the Agent tell him to sell one of his cars. [He and his wife had more than 2 between them all very expensive convertibles.] Strangely the Buyer didn't drop out.
Just hold on.
The Buyer was a Quantity Surveyor by the way.

Ellyess · 17/08/2023 17:39

BitOutOfPractice · 15/08/2023 12:05

@AllTheChaos I know right?. It was one of those "I remember where I was when it happened" moments! I found my buyer on facebook and was tempted to message her but restrained myself!

I did write a letter to the Buyer who had not even had the honesty to say he was not buying my house after all. It was 1992, shortly after my husband had died. This Buyer was a young Solicitor we knew, indeed my husband had taught him, and he had demanded to exchange and complete in one go on the day we moved out. My Agent was very against it as was I and I said I would continue to market the house. However, I organised the Removals people and moving in to my next house and the chain after that was set up.

Then late in the afternoon of the day before we were due to move, my Agent phoned and said the Estate Agent further down the High Street had just phoned him to say that my Buyer had just left, having made an offer on a house that had come back on the market and which he had tried to buy before but was out-bidden, and his offer this time was accepted.

This Solicitor, our Buyer, did not even notify us that he was not going to turn up and buy my house the next day. I would have had my Removals people there. It was not just us but our Sellers where we were to move and the people from whom they were buying and the whole chain! He had completely let everyone down just hours before - without telling us! Yet he had promised that he would exchange and complete at the same time despite my misgivings. Fortunately I had told the people from whom I was buying that this was the case.

Thank God the Agents had morals and passed information on to each other.

Anyway, I knew where this young man lived, with his father, in a huge house. I hand wrote a letter telling him exactly why we were moving, what it was like for my children losing their father and why they needed a fresh start. I told him how hard it had been finding a house still in the children's schools' areas. I told him about the chain of people he had let down, all of whom had packed up and had Removal Firms booked for the following day. I said he had promised he would exchange and complete the next day and I trusted him because he was a Solicitor and we had known him as a pupil at the school (it is a very privileged school).

I took the letter by hand. His father came to the door. I said who I was. He said "I know, I am so sorry" and tears came down his cheeks.

Is it Shakespeare?
"Sharper than a serpent's tooth is a thankless child".
I know King Lear is not exactly the same, but this quotation comes to me every time I see this Father's broken sorrow in my memory's eye. The pain he felt was so clearly from the wrong his own son had done to us, the widow and her children, a thing he, a Solicitor himself, would never do, and had clearly never brought up his son to do. It was so selfish, so nasty, unscrupulous and heartless and cunningly taking advantage of my good will in trusting him by giving him this unusual situation. But he was lying from the outset because he only wanted time to hold on and grab for himself something he apparently knew was coming his way below the market price. He was unconcerned that he inflicted distress on anybody, least of all a family such as we. He had no regard for anybody who suffered from his dishonourable, calculated selfishness. His only care was what he could grab for himself, no matter how much others might suffer due to his indifferent breaking his word.

I doubt if I had made him exchange contracts 3 or 4 weeks earlier he would have kept his word but I suppose he would have lost his deposit. The point is he completely refused to exchange and made convincing reasons for not doing so, (he said he was going away for work... if I remember) making himself seem reliable and honest.

Luckily I had kept marketing the house and another Buyer who lived only round the corner was found in under a week and was ready to move in under a month and the rest of the chain stayed firm.

ElizaAgainn · 17/08/2023 17:47

Ellyess - sorry to read what was done to you by that solicitor - eek!

Fingers crossed that karma might come back and bite him on the bum though - eg with the way his father was so clearly upset at what his son had done, then maybe father will change his will to the disadvantage of that son (who is doubtless already mentally spending the money.....because that sort of person does that...).

user1499191107 · 17/08/2023 19:06

I'm so sorry, that's just awful. People are horrible. We had it happen to us too a few years ago. We used to live in Australia and the process is so much faster, easier and fairer there. For a start, you have to put on a deposit that you lose if you change your mind after 14 days cooling off period. Also, conveyancers and solicitors have a set time (used to be within 6 weeks) that it had to be completed. It is such a ridiculous and cruel system here.

Solonge · 17/08/2023 19:29

hoophoophooray · 17/08/2023 07:33

This would require all the due diligence to be done before the offer then surely?

In our current system this would require everyone who wants to even offer to have to do a survey, searches, full mortgage application without even knowing if the offer is acceptable.

You'd have to somehow convince surveyors / structural engineer etc to be prepare to indemnify anyone given access to a report they had written so the seller could do them and then pass them on. At the moment, only the person who pays for the survey is entitled to rely on it.

Our system isn't great, but changing it isn't as simple as saying "oh you must put down a 10% deposit". You'd have to be able to rescind for "good reason" and who would decide what that reason is?

It works in Scotland. The seller has to have the survey done and the property is assessed for value. Once you put in an offer and its accepted, you are comitted.

Solonge · 17/08/2023 19:32

Utereusbegone · 17/08/2023 12:21

Personally I think the commitment needs to go both ways, so if the seller pulls out there is also a penalty for them

Far rarer for the seller to pull out.

HMP70 · 17/08/2023 21:51

So sorry, hope you get another buyer soon. I have no idea why solicitors still advise to exchange & complete same day, I have always insisted it is done a good couple of weeks before. From my parents experience of everything packed in the removal van & buyer just decided nope changed my mind, not buying. My solicitor when we brought our house 5 years ago, really protested when I insisted from the outset on it done separately. I gave her the choice of do it or I'll go elsewhere. UK property laws are archaic.

Utereusbegone · 17/08/2023 23:30

Far rarer for the seller to pull out.

Guzumping doesn't seem particularly rare

Utereusbegone · 17/08/2023 23:31

*gazumping

AnTeallach · 18/08/2023 00:50

Solonge
It works in Scotland. The seller has to have the survey done and the property is assessed for value. Once you put in an offer and its accepted, you are comitted.

Exchanging and completing on the same day happens in Scotland too, though. It's not a perfect system here. I've already posted about the sale of my late mother's house falling through, when the buyer walked out at the point of signing.

Wibbleswombat · 18/08/2023 09:08

It's a myth about being committed in Scotland once you have offered and accepted in Scotland.

What is different is that the offer and acceptance are done in writing at the start and people work to a date. The offer and acceptance form part of the missives and they need to be completed, then you are committed. However, if they find a problem with the title, it can still fall through. They have stricter rules on acting for people too.

We moved out past our solicitor meeting with the buyers and their solicitor inspecting an issue with our place. It went right to the wire, to the point they'd not transferred their money.

I think the date being agreed at the start really helps.

It used to be that everyone offering on a house had to do a survey, so the seller getting a Home Report was brought in to change that and it's ok.

Whenwillglorioussummercome · 18/08/2023 10:35

GasPanic · 17/08/2023 10:19

Exactly.

The best thing you can do as a buyer is get as much information on the house as you can before offer. These days it is easy to get hold of deeds to check stumbling blocks like right of access, check flood risk, check local development, check EPC, check council maps for TPOs etc. Check local domestic planning etc. Inspect house well.

It makes sense to do this before you start commiting to the purhase process because once you engage solicitors/conveyancers that is when it starts costing you money.

This, very much. I hope not to have to sell or buy for a very long time after a stressful couple of years doing both but I will be doing this. I’m also tempted to get a survey on my own house well in advance and fix anything that turns up without the pressure of being in conveyancing - not that this will mean a new surveyor might not find other things but at least I’d feel more confident. Our current system means we are all locked into trying to make decisions, often about quite expensive things, in a very short time which massively adds to stress. And we all know how often surveys throw up things that look awful on paper but have been perfectly livable with, or unnoticed, until then - and could be fixed without spooking a buyer that they’re buying a wreck.

OP, I really hope you can find a new buyer and move on. We were the awful buyers who pulled out, not so late in the process, but within weeks of the tentative completion date under discussion. I think our sellers probably thought us absolute arses. We had a legal issue that our solicitor was very concerned about but the agent refused to see as a serious problem ‘in her experience’. We had raised it several weeks earlier and she dismissed it at every turn. Our mortgage company was prepared to overlook it so so far as she was concerned it was irrelevant. We ended up at crunch point where our solicitor was advising us only to go ahead with a substantial price reduction (and we were under pressure to move quickly for the chain and couldn’t get the sort of detailed quotes we really needed to know what that reduction should be) but the agent was telling us it was all nonsense. In the end we said we needed to drop our purchase price by 10% and explained exactly why, and the seller refused, so we had to pull out, but I strongly suspect the agent painted us as total chancers to the seller. Had she engaged with our concerns at any point we might have been able to find a way ahead, but the issues we were raising really should have been made clear when the house was marketed so would have exposed the agents I think.

The whole thing was awful and I still feel so bad for the seller. They relisted the same day but withdrew almost immediately and I do wonder if their own solicitor explained our issue after the event and they decided to resolve before trying to sell again.

I do think that fact that agents become trusted parties in the sales process but are in fact there to just get the place sold and make commission doesn’t help. They don’t always offer dependable advice and cloud things.

milveycrohn · 18/08/2023 12:09

@HMP70
" I have no idea why solicitors still advise to exchange & complete same day,"

Do they?
It was always traditionally 28 days, but can be longer or shorter. In the case of my DS it was around 6 weeks, as the sellers had a child with special needs, and they required their support systems to be in place at their new area before actually moving. (note however, that insurance has to be in place on exchange).
The time between exchange and completion gives you time to put all the removals, etc in place.
I would never agree to exchange and completion on the same day.