Anyone had architect design completely unrealistic?

[Beyondsnoop]

Paid over £5k to an architect for extension drawings according to our budget. Also noting that cost of materials going up so allowed extra for that but prepared for more. V specific that we were flexible on what we wanted but we only have so much money hence employing an architect as the expert.

Gone to get a builder and the v few that will quote, are giving base prices over double our budget. Literally an extra £150k. Architect is saying get more quotes they are too high and ‘price of materials’. But firstly, we can’t be getting quotes forever, and secondly would you trust a quote in budget when everyone else is saying it’s much more expensive in reality?

Also some have broke down the quotes for us (how embarrassing, all that work to tell them we can’t afford it) and the components look like reasonable figures you would expect to us. It’s the whole bloody plans that don’t add up.

Not sure how to move forward with this.

I feel cross on your behalf. I had a similar thing on a pointless roof survey, instead of just getting the roof replaced!

Look around your area and see if anyone's got the kind of extension you're thinking about.
We did this, and were able to look inside other people's houses. We were also able to look at plans on the local authority planning website. As a result, we knew what we wanted. We went for an architectural technician, who had done lots of similar extensions, and who was cheaper than an architect. He also had a good idea of costs. We were able to do this because it was a standard two-storey extension on a three-bed semi.

That really is the best way. Find an extension on someone else's house, find the builder who built it, get him to do the same for you.

Reconfiguring rooms can get really expensive and bitty. It sounds simple enough, but when you get down to the nitty-gritty of moving the boiler or the water tank and replumbing etc it can be an expensive nightmare.

I disagree that architects don't design to budget. A friend of mine is an architect and has a very clear idea of xx finish costing per m2. She told me the rough price per m2 for basic, middle and high end finish. And the architect that designed our garage extension priced the work for us too (according to the budget parameters we set out). And we received 2 offers within budget.

A good architect should be able to price the work, even with the rise in materials.

I would ask the Architect to arrange for "one of the local trusted builders around here" to come and give you a quote and to be present for it. He can then talk to the builder and work out a way for his plans to come in on budget.
It would be interesting to hear his reasons when he telks you that this won't be possible.

The architect hasn’t met your brief then? I would ask them to adjust the plans to fit your budget. They can’t be totally unaware of costs or as suggested ask them to recommend a builder who can meet the budget/plans.

If the budget is the most critical thing you really want a good QS with an ear to the ground working with the architect. They’d say no before the drawing got to you.

I think architects generally do their best with costs but when prices rise as quickly as they have in the last couple of years it can be difficult for them to keep up.

They should really be keeping an eye on how much clients are being given quoted for the designs they're producing, and adjusting their expectations accordingly, but the final prices for jobs including finishes may only really be fully understood when they're finished. How many clients contact their architect after their kitchen is in and the flooring fitted to update them on the final cost?

Even architects working on their own jobs aren't immune. A friend has just designed his own extension, and ended up with something unaffordable.

In reality, an architect who was more realistic or even pessimistic about costs might not end up with many clients. Imagine I talk to two architects and tell them I want a 5x5m side return extension and have a budget of £60,000. Architect one says that's a great idea and ambitious but achievable on budget, why not put in a solid wood kitchen here with a view over the garden, full width sliding doors here and a lantern roof? The other says it's unrealistic, you need to be less ambitious, have a smaller extension, less remodelling, leave out the roof window because supply issues mean they're very expensive this year, have a cheaper kitchen in its current non-ideal position and some smaller upvc patio doors. Which one am I likely to get excited about working with?

@Beyondsnoop
There are huge issues with building materiel prices and wages going up due to labour shortages. You may well be looking at 40 x £5,000 at least now for your project. Builders also price very high if they don’t need or want the job. I think £150k is low for what you want in this day and age in many areas. Costs for some materials are up by at least 50%. The internal alterations are not ridiculously expensive in an overall scheme but I’m assuming you are doing changes on two floors. However joining roofs, matching bricks, altering drainage etc does cost more. You are not just adding a small box on the ground floor.

Architects do have some idea of prices. They know what other clients have paid. Universally they are poor at controlling costs though! However building costs are a very very fluid situation right now, but they are only going one way! I think your only option is to try and get more quotes. Maybe think about what can be left out or decide to do some of the work yourself or get trades in when you can afford it.

We set a budget of £250k. Paid £15k for the plans and detailed spec of work. The quotes were bonkers!! Highest was around £600k. I made some changes myself. Actually the changes are much better than the architect’s ideas. I reworked the spec. We’ve now finished our building work and it all came in at £350k.

During the build, I ended up saving £15k or so in VAT by paying cash to some trades and I oversaw and sourced everything for our kitchen, which cost around £40k instead of the £80k I’d been quoted by big kitchen companies. I also managed to get trade prices on bathroom fittings and tiles etc.

Good luck!! I’m delighted with how everything turned out with our work, but my main lesson was that the architect had no bloody idea about actual costs!!!

It is of course illegal to pay cash to avoid VAT so that’s probably not a strategy to promote on Mumsnet to keep prices now.
@BestDove

At a time when so many people are choosing between heating and eating it really warms the cockles of the heart to read about people with a £350k extension budget dodging tax. Well done you. Hope the £15k you stole from the state got you some really nice underfloor heating.

@hazelbeach lol it’s not stealing from then state, as I haven’t have done the work (joinery) otherwise. Also it’s helping the carpenter working privately on his free weekends after a full week of being gainfully employed (and legitimately) elsewhere 😂

Of course it's stealing from the state. The tax and VAT goes to support the NHS, schools, roads etc. You pay tax on all the money you earn. Money earned in the evenings and weekends counts. You've just admitted to tax fraud. Best hope no one from HMRC takes an interest.

You're right, technically you are a tax evader rather than a thief. Bit surprising that you think that is a morally superior position tbh.

@hazelbeach @Pluvia I’ve paid tax on all my earnings and on balance get nothing in return. Then for our renovation (it wasn’t an extension, so internal work only), I’ve paid £67k in VAT.

Then for a small part of the build, I paid for a service in cash. Whilst I can guess the tradesman’s intention, it’s actually not for me to declare the money to HMRC, that’s a situation for the trade to discuss with their accountant 😊

Saving 15k In vat means you paid someone 75k in cash... hardly a small amount for weekend work

I’ve paid tax on all my earnings and on balance get nothing in return.

No, no, of course you don't. You never use the road or transport systems, your children don't go to school or university, you've never needed the NHS, you've never had child benefit... And that's just the start of a very long list.

You are not alone @Beyondsnoop

There is a "starchitect" in Ireland who has his own show on tv called Room To Improve.
It's now being shown on Channel 5 in the UK apparently ( I don't get this channel in my package ).
He is infamous for going over clients' budgets with his designs - the arguments makefor good tv.
For light relief you should watch it.

Grand Designs, George Clarke programmes etc - In practically all the property shows on UK tv the clients go over budget. Often waaay over !

With the pandemic, Brexit and now, sadly the war in Ukraine building costs have rocketed up.

Yes. It was annoying. It was literally like that bit in the tv show where they go here is what you could have won!!!
😩

He’s actually been more adventurous than we asked for (changing location of kitchen etc) as we thought some of it would be too expensive. He assured us not.

Adventurous = expensive. Of course it will cost money to change the location of the kitchen.

Yes it does cost money. We did it but the value of the house meant it was money well spent. Plus we had the money!

Yes you need to go back over the plans and work out what is essential, then strip everything else out and work back up if there is a budget. Double height extension, moving kitchen, bifolds, rsjs all add to costs. Get some new plans with a single height extension, French windows and kitchen in the same place and see how they come in.

Different scale and this was 20 years ago! I wanted a bathroom refit and my budget was about £8k… which I figured was more than reasonable.

the highly recommended designer turned up, did her thing and submitted a quote for £27k!

I didn’t even respond.

bear in mind - this was 20 years ago, it was a 2-bed house, not a mansion which I’d only paid 114 for!

Anlita is correct above. did you send your specific requirements in writing to the architect? If so find them and send them a copy - this is unequivocally their balls-up. However you will have verbally advised on what you wanted client brief and the architect should have confirmed this in writing to you Check RIBA (Royal Institute of British Architects)standards.
Get them to reduce the scheme, leave the kitchen where it was and come up with something logical.
£100k is not chicken feed.
However, if you want to make more from this scheme (I would not) get quotes from specific trades. Foundations are the biggest costs with the highest risk so high prices. e.g. Consider labouring for a trader (husband) or take on part of the work yourselves.
As an example, I wanted to build a triple garage 10M X 7M and went for quotes for the whole job - varied from £30-45K (12 years ago). One builder (driving a Mercedes G-wagon ) suggested he couldnt do it for 6 weeks at £47k as he was going on his annual Caribbean holiday.
I helped dig the foundation with a friend who was a very good digger driver and helped him concrete the foundations.
I then asked for brikkie recommendations and engaged 'Percy' who was slow and steady (construction time wasnt an issue of critical importance but needed managing (naturally)). Finally the building was complete roofed in Chinese slate, external brick and almost within budget at £17.5K - it can be done. The roller shutter doors and fixing cost £3k afterwards.

I am currently getting my architects plan costed with a builder and this has terrified me! Architect estimated £50k for the work. I have £70k so though I could do the kitchen extension and new kitchen for that😳😫