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Eltham or Plumstead?

47 replies

Fizzgigg · 12/06/2021 19:55

We're looking at buying houses around either Plumstead (near Shooters Hill) or Eltham.

Anyone know the areas? Pros/cons/preferences?

OP posts:
LoopTheLoops · 13/06/2021 13:39

Eltham is/was known for being a bit racist not sure if that’s still the case but it certainly was when I was growing up hence why I wouldn’t personally live there (my kids are mixed race)

smallgoon · 13/06/2021 20:46

Weren't the chaps that murdered Stephen Lawrence from Eltham? That may be why it has a rep.

LoopTheLoops · 13/06/2021 21:03

Yes they were but I also went to secondary school there and it was still very racist ended up leaving early!

ThrowawayNick · 13/06/2021 21:11

@0None0

You need to understand what sort of school ark Greenwich free school is, before you choose it.

Children line up in a straight line with their arms in the air. If their feet are not exactly on either side of the painted line, and their elbow not completely straight, they get a detention. That day. No warning.

They are made to sit by upright in lessons. BOLT upright. ALL the time. Sitting normally =detention. My friend removed her daughter for this reason- last year, the girl is still getting back ache.

Not remaining dead silent in lessons. Once=warning. Twice=detention. Three times=exclusion room. And so it goes on. My friends daughter was ending up with regular one or two hour detentions for things like forgetting a pencil sharpener, or siting normally.

It’s absolutely brutal. And the staff turn over is about 50% a year. I think even staff find the regime shockingly harsh

There are some children who do well in such a military like culture, and you could argue that too much discipline is better than too little.

But you need to know what it’s like before you consider it.

It is notorious. And actually, the value added scores they got in their exam results are not great.

NC'd as I work at AGFS, and you are somewhat misrepresenting the school's approach here.

Children line up each morning and raise their hands to indicate they have noticed the 'be silent' hand in the air from a teacher. They do not have to have their feet either side of a line! They then lower their hands and stand waiting to be read to and then dismissed to lessons.

Children are expected to sit up and not slouch in lessons, so that they are paying attention, and showing respect to the teacher.

Children also understand that they do not speak over others, and are silent when asked to be.

The culture is very strong, and many pupils find it comforting and safe to know that there is no space for others to be unkind or rude to them. Much of the school's ethos is driven by character education to try and address some deficits in their knowledge and education to date and to allow them to compete with children from grammar schools and private schools.

The staff turnover is nothing like 50% (per what? Year? Term? I wasn't sure from your post).

The pastoral team is huge and outstanding, there is an enormous focus on supporting students through challenges they may face. There is a large SEN department who provide outstanding support for students with SEND.

Oh, and the progress 8 score is +0.8, and is approaching +1.

The school is absolutely committed to each child having a breadth and depth of opportunity. Sometimes this is through tough love - ensuring that pupils know how to speak clearly and articulately and carry themselves with confidence can mean pushing students to not retreat into their safe teenage mumble, but the outcomes speak for themselves.

Fizzgigg · 13/06/2021 21:16

Thanks for presenting the other side @throwawayNick . Like I said up thread that just didn't sound like my experience of observing in other Ark schools (I work in ITT).

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0None0 · 14/06/2021 11:43

Hmm. You’re skating over some of the more brutal aspects. My friend’s daughter has been left with long term back problems from being required to sit BOLT upright at all times. Other students have confirmed her reports that at s had to be held straight up in the air for long periods, no matter how much it hurt. They have to be held up until they are allowed to put them down, and get into trouble if they are not straight. We didn’t really believe this at first, but it was confirmed multiple times. As yo being ‘read to’- they get some sort of long text read out in the playground at the start of the day, and they all have to remain silent. Tutors are not even allowed to greet their tutees. They are simply inspected in total silence for total conformity, while some weighty text is intoned. Are you denying there are lines painted on the floor, which students have to stand down, one foot on either side?

My friends daughter and her peers did not feel ‘safe’ in any way at all. They were constantly on tender hooks, waiting to be screamed at at any moment for anything

0None0 · 14/06/2021 11:59

@ throwawaynick.

How long have you worked there?

What percentage of staff left over the last 12 months. Or, as that isn’t particularly representative, over the12 months before that?

What percentage of students have the same tutor now that they had a year ago? I think you’ll find that is 0. Zero percent. That was the final straw for my friend. Her daughter lived her tutor, but she was taken away to cover an older class who’s tutor had left. In fact every single class lost their tutor in a single year. What does that say about a school?

0None0 · 14/06/2021 12:09

This school s as Lao forced students into interminable whole school assemblies, with hundreds of children crammed in together, as close as possible, at the end of March 2020, in spite of multiple warnings to keep children socially distanced, and inspite of the children’s fear

I promise you, ‘safe’ was the last thing they felt

JorisBonson · 14/06/2021 13:40

If I could afford proper Shooters Hill, I'd pick that over Eltham.

Wouldn't touch Plumstead with a ten foot pole.

Fizzgigg · 14/06/2021 13:53

@JorisBonson

If I could afford proper Shooters Hill, I'd pick that over Eltham.

Wouldn't touch Plumstead with a ten foot pole.

Thanks. Fingers crossed our Shooters Hill house won't fall through! It's a gorgeous terrace with extended kitchen and loft conversion. Just waiting to hear from estate agent.
OP posts:
JorisBonson · 14/06/2021 13:54

Good luck!

absentpresence · 14/06/2021 14:01

Come to Bexleyheath Smile

Fizzgigg · 14/06/2021 14:54

@absentpresence

Come to Bexleyheath Smile
It's been considered....
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Changechangychange · 14/06/2021 15:20

@Fizzgigg Neither of those are the schools I am talking about. Arks All Saints and Ark Evelyn Grace.

Phaseur · 15/06/2021 12:10

I don't think you will do far wrong with either choice. The area between Plumstead Common and Shooters Hill is great for families - schools, green spaces, parks etc. Eltham is fine aside from some clearly defined areas that you would likely discount anyway. Good luck with the purchase!

throwawayNick · 15/06/2021 18:44

@0None0

Hmm. You’re skating over some of the more brutal aspects. My friend’s daughter has been left with long term back problems from being required to sit BOLT upright at all times. Other students have confirmed her reports that at s had to be held straight up in the air for long periods, no matter how much it hurt. They have to be held up until they are allowed to put them down, and get into trouble if they are not straight. We didn’t really believe this at first, but it was confirmed multiple times. As yo being ‘read to’- they get some sort of long text read out in the playground at the start of the day, and they all have to remain silent. Tutors are not even allowed to greet their tutees. They are simply inspected in total silence for total conformity, while some weighty text is intoned. Are you denying there are lines painted on the floor, which students have to stand down, one foot on either side?

My friends daughter and her peers did not feel ‘safe’ in any way at all. They were constantly on tender hooks, waiting to be screamed at at any moment for anything

I'm going to reply to each msg in turn if that's okay.

The children are expected to stand in silence and listen to a short reading each morning, yes. The silence is so that they can all hear the speaker (a peer). It is also them practicing showing respect to others. The text is usually around 12-15 lines (printed on A4 paper). It is not weighty, so much as interesting/inspiring - yesterday we had a reading of something Michelle Obama said in a speech, about persisting when times are hard.

Standing with one hand in the air to show you have noticed the signal to stop and stop talking - well, we as teachers do it too, to signal it to students and to model the behaviour we want. I have never once felt even discomfort! And I am old and rickety!

The standing on/across lines - they line up in the playground. The lines in the playground are so that it can be used for sports. Students line up perpendicular to the 'edge' lines (crossing the width of the playground). There simply aren't lines on the playground that they could use to do what you describe!

As for the sitting up - they are not allowed to slouch. We do not force rigid military posture, we insist on sitting up, with the chair tucked in and supporting your back. I'm sorry to hear that the student you know has back issues. I'm not sure how back issues can be caused by sitting up straight - my terrible back issues are worse when I slump!

We absolutely, categorically, do not 'scream' at students. We may speak in a louder than conversational voice to be heard if presenting to a large group, but I have not ever heard true shouting, let alone screaming. The ethos of our culture is to be clear and calm when speaking, particularly if issuing a sanction. This is something we practice frequently as a staff body.

throwawayNick · 15/06/2021 18:52

@0None0

@ throwawaynick.

How long have you worked there?

What percentage of staff left over the last 12 months. Or, as that isn’t particularly representative, over the12 months before that?

What percentage of students have the same tutor now that they had a year ago? I think you’ll find that is 0. Zero percent. That was the final straw for my friend. Her daughter lived her tutor, but she was taken away to cover an older class who’s tutor had left. In fact every single class lost their tutor in a single year. What does that say about a school?

I don't have numbers, only my recollections. At Christmas four staff left, at Easter, two, and I know of three who are leaving at the end of the summer term. I believe (I haven't checked exact numbers) that there are 90+ staff. So, around 10%, although, as I say, this is based on memories of the last day of each term in which we say goodbye to staff who are leaving.

I don't have access to specific numbers on how long, on average, staff remain at the school.

Tutors do move form groups when a member of staff leaves - this is usually a case of matching the right personality to a form. Some need much more pastoral support, some need more encouragement, some need tutors who are good at behaviour management. It varies.

throwawayNick · 15/06/2021 18:54

@0None0

This school s as Lao forced students into interminable whole school assemblies, with hundreds of children crammed in together, as close as possible, at the end of March 2020, in spite of multiple warnings to keep children socially distanced, and inspite of the children’s fear

I promise you, ‘safe’ was the last thing they felt

Assemblies restarted, in year groups, when we returned to school. A year group is around 120 pupils. Assemblies last ten minutes, unless they are end of term rewards assemblies. Students sit in class bubbles, facing the front, with masks on (until a couple of weeks ago), and in the Main Hall, at desks spaced 1+m apart.
Phaseur · 03/07/2021 12:13

@Fizzgigg how did you get on?

Fizzgigg · 03/07/2021 12:22

We're somewhat in limbo @phaseur, thanks for asking.

The Shooters Hill house didn't complete by deadline so now we're trying to renegotiate on price because we don't think the house is worth the extra money we have to pay in stamp duty and our offer was always contingent on completing by end of June.

Eltham house is still on the table but honestly we're not convinced that the sellers are committed to selling and they haven't really been looking hard to find somewhere to move to. We're not willing to put in an offer and be waiting 6 months for them to find somewhere or worse, stay put.

So we're stuck and almost certainly not moving house this summer. There have been a lot of tears in the last 2 weeks Sad

OP posts:
Phaseur · 03/07/2021 13:17

Sorry to hear that, sounds like you need a plan C! Worth continuing to look still some relatively good value to be had between Plumstead Common and Shooters Hill especially if willing to do some work renovating etc. Get your adjusted budget sorted out and go for it! Be great if you could get something vacant possession.

Fizzgigg · 03/07/2021 13:51

Yeah we're definitely continuing to look. Something will come eventually!

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