lots of structural alterations and no paperwork!!!

[Christmascookiesmmmm]

We are buying a house and all the searches are back. The sellers have included a lot of paperwork about every single service for the gas and the burglar alarm for example, and also when they replaced the windows, but absolutely nothing about several structural changes I’m fairly sure they’ve made to the property (it was either them in 2007 or the people who owned it for a few months before they bought it..)

These were highlighted in the survey, which said our solictor should source building regulations certificates for or we should have them looked at by a structural engineer:

Load bearing wall between kitchen and breaKfast room removed

Chimney breast removed

Loft boarded and structural changes made, also roof covering changes with addition of velum windows.

Also no paperwork on kitchen extension estimated 1990s.

I find it odd how they’ve provided all info on lots of other things but nothing on these structural changes.

The surveyor said (homebuyers report) there is no sign of distress but still I don’t want to buy without knowing it’s ok for sure.

Would it be reasonable to ask sellers to pay for structural engineer to have a look? They’ve got a good offer from us, and we haven’t asked for any money off so far, despite a couple of things coming up in survey so haven’t pissed them off. We’ve pushed things along quickly as we’re ftb and they want a quick sale. Just basically we’ve gone to our absolute max and it’s going to be very tight. I did not expect we’d have to pay for a structural engineer too!! Or even split the cost ?

I always go for a full structural report but it will be full of caveats. The sellers are under no obligation to pay or part pay for your survey or any deductions you might need to make afterwards.

OP - they haven’t provided the BR paperwork because they don’t have it! The structural survey will offer advice for further investigation- you should get this anyway when you buy a house. It is my understanding that this is not confirmation of the work having met building standards or not- it’s just expert advice. You can ask the vendors to get BR retrospectively but they might put it back on the market. Remember you face the same issues when you come to sell.

They are not obliged to provide BR or planning permission from over 12 years ago. If the local search has revealed BR/PP were granted then ...great....it shows they are in existence...which is the main thing....copies can sometimes be obtained from the council. If the survey has revealed works that haven't come up on the local search I.e. there are no BR approval for or planning then an indemnity policy can be taken out (seller usually pays and it will protect against potential action from the council) of course the indemnity policy doesn't cover the safety aspect so you need to be satisfied in this regard! A word of warning tho, if there are no BR/PP and you contact the council at all (enquire or for retrospective) then this will stop you from being able to have an indemnity policy so tread carefully!

The op has enquired about a report from a Structural Engineer and this isn’t the same as a Structural survey by a surveyor which will be full of caveats. I would pay for this op because there is no other way of finding out if the work has left the property in good condition. You need to know if it is sound. If you buy it, the report can be passed on when you sell. It’s yours. You can also get the vendors to get the indemnity insurance. I think there are too many question marks to do nothing and it won’t cost you that much. Peace of mind will be worth it though.

Thank you everyone for your replies!! @BubblesBuddy yes that’s right!! Do you know how much a report like this would cost roughly? Can’t get a definitive answer online!

If this work was carried out without being signed off by building regs , even if it was to standard at the time , regs get updated regularly so it probably wouldn't pass off now ,
the loft room may not actually count as a room of not meeting building regs
Indemnity insurance isn't worth the paper it's written on it's just an easy legal get out
For sound advice get a structural engineer to asses the work carried out and advise work and cost of work to update to current building regs

Hi @Speaking, yes true but actually the loft isn’t a proper room it’s just boarded so we’d have to start from scratch anyway, basically just want to make sure everything is structurally sound! Do you know how much an appointment with structural engineer might cost? Thanks!

Your EA or broker should be able to give you ballpark figures and possibly some recommendations.

The extension wouldn't bother me (too far in the past) but the chimney breast and load bearing wall would.

We removed a load bearing wall and had to leave it all exposed until it was expected. If they've not done any of that, alarm bells would ring imo.

Sorry, inspected not expected.

Christmas: don’t go to the Estate Agent for a price. Most of them are barely out of school. They might have contacts though.

I would phone round and say what the issues are and ask how much an inspection and a report would cost. My guess would be £300-500 depending on the time it takes. Many smaller local Structural Enginerrs will do this work so just google. You need to ascertain if they look at houses regularly. Do they have someone who is familiar with this work? You should not have any problems though. You will need to ask the vendors for permission to get the report done.

For what it's worth , I recently looked at a house with a load bearing wall removed and decided against buying due to the fact that the vendor had had an "expert in Victorian buildings " give guidance to its removal - spoke volumes to me that the expert didn't regard building control being essential ,
I was offered indemnity insurance but tbh that doesn't stop the roof falling in - I really don't mind this type of remedial work but expect to Carry it out to a very sound high standard and therefore expect the purchase price to reflect this fact

I based my final decision not to buy on the fact that although it was a lovely house there are lots of lovely houses with less headaches out there for sale

Your structural engineer walk round inspection and report should be between £500 and £800 depending on detail & amount of time / work/ size of company etc ask before booking for a guide price
( I had recent calculations for an ( one) RSJ plus goal posts to support load bearing wall and that was around £400 ) which I thought reasonable

What I was trying to explain from my previous post was , I expect to do work on a property but sometimes the work can be much more than expected due to the previous owners bodged building work that then needs to be taken apart and made safe as an added expense

Often it's better to get a property that hasn't been messed about by a diy-er

OP what sort of paperwork are you expecting the sellers to provide? I only ask as we had some walls knocked down and steel added but not sure I’d have anything to provide if I came to sell. Is it just BR you’re looking for?

Thank you everyone! Good advice, I’ve got some recommendations for local companies from the estate agent and mortgage broker so going to ring round to get quotes when I have the time!

@WidowTwonky that’s interesting! I’d have just assumed their would be at least an invoice where I could see the date it was done and the company so I could do some research and see if it’s reputable! Did you not get an invoice when you had the work done?

Building regs of course would be nice but it’s obvious we’re not going to get them do an invoice would be better than nothing! What is strange to me is they didn’t even state thus change on their property information form- they just put the boarded loft. It makes me wonder whether the people who only had it for a few months and then sold it on for same price they bought it did the work.. the house is in very good condition and I trust that the current vendors have done everything by the book but I’d be more worried if it was the previous owners. I just want more information really!!

No invoic!

@WidowTwonky

if it was a load bearing wall usually building regs should have been informed and involved under permitted development , you will then get it signed off and a completion certificate
This would be what a purchaser and their conveyancer would look for

Having said that lots cop out and accept an indemnity policy paid by the vendor, these don't cost much ( £50) or so but not worth the paper they are written on. Depends on the buyer ( and the nature of the work involved ) as to acceptance

But on the information form you only need to state what you have carried out not work by previous owners .

I’ve got BR just nothing else

You should be fine ,
you may need to chase your electrician up for a electrical cert if that type of work was involved , windows / doors are probably covered with br , you should only need gas cert if gas fitting was involved ( gas and electric are usually as well as br )

I’ve got BR just nothing else
If you've had a supporting wall removed building regs is important bit!

@AnotherOneBitesTheDust your post above is very interesting.

. They are not obliged to provide BR or planning permission from over 12 years ago.

I'm not seeking to challenge or doubt you, but it would be helpful to know the source for that.
It does seem to me that buyers and their solicitors seem to want BR consents for things that are so old you didn't even need to get BR consent at the time.
( Not removal of load bearing walls, obviously)

You should have calcs for the beam from 12 years ago! Not sure we have BR for our wall removals but DH did the calcs and design. He knows a bit more then BR anyway. BR isn’t the best proof of satisfactory building - calcs and design drawings tell you a lot.

Funny how they have all records for minor things like the boiler but not for a major structural alteration.

Sounds very dodgy and would put me off

I personally woukdn’t touch this without a certificate of regularisation paid for by the vendors for the RSJ and the chimney stacks. It sounds like they’ve carried out major structural work, potentially without conforming to building regs, and they’ve deliberately not declared it to you, which would set alarm bells ringing. Worst case, although unlikely, is that your house could collapse.

As a pp said though, be sure you want to go down that route because as soon as you make the local council aware, you have no other option.

AnotherOneBitesTheDust
They are not obliged to provide BR or planning permission from over 12 years ago

I would also be interested in a source for this. It is the first time I've heard such a claim.

They are not obliged to provide anything other than they have to have the title to the property they are transferring.
If they don't provide whatever you need, you can decide to proceed or not, and if it turns out to be an issue then it's down to the buyer to deal with.