Solve my mystery damp problem

[BlogOnTheTyne]

(PigletJohn and others????) Newly converted garage with recently laid Amtico wood effect vinyl flooring and no current signs of leaking radiator pipes or roof....So why has the new large rug I laid down on the floor become very very damp and the nonslip mat beneath it and the Amtico flooring beneath that?

I'd also laid the new curtains on top of the rug, prior to hanging them and they too are very very wet. There's been sufficient dampness to penetrate from below the nonslip mat, through the rug, to the curtains on top. I am extremely confused.

I've got two theories and wonder if anyone can help me resolve things? My first theory is that the synthetic vinyl flooring, covered with a nonslip mat of synthetic material and then a part-latex, synthetic material rug have all created some kind of condensation 'trap' between the layers. Is that possible if you lay synthetic, non breathable material on top of vinyl? (I'm assuming the nonslip mat and the part latex rug are 'non breathable').

Can you get a build up of condensation on a floor like this, if you cover it? The area of the rug that became wet is beneath a window but also beneath a radiator.

There's a condensation problem in the room as there's a build up of condensation between a circular single pane window and the secondary glazing which was put up over it. It's not too bad now (that was another post here) but is still occurring. Haven't been opening the windows because it's been cold and wet outside but maybe should be doing this?

Second theory - which is more worrying: the new en suite toilet off this room, leaked a while ago (posted about that here too) and the builders returned to fix the waste pipe and hopefully prevent further leaking. There hasn't been any visible signs of an ongoing leak from there but I was worried at the time that the leakage had penetrated underneath all the newly laid basic flooring (a 'floating floor') and would remain there and slowly penetrate upwards across time, once the Amtico floor had been laid.

The builders assured me that it would be fine and that the floating floor they'd laid had an antidamp liner, as per builder regulations - so there couldn't and wouldn't be a problem with residual damp rising through the floor. Are they right? Or could this be what's happening now? But can dampness penetrate to that degree upwards through the builders floating floor, the flooring companies initial boarding out on top of that and then the Amtico vinyl as the final layer?

Why would this damp problem only be happening in one area, if this were indeed the case - and that area being furthest away from the en suite toilet?

So from the info. here, has anyone got an idea about why my rug and floor became wet? I've taken up the rug and nonslip mat but does this mean I can't lie a rug on the floor at all or would I need to replace the new synthetic one with something natural like wool and would that stop the possible condensation issue (if that's what it is)? Is this a common problem with synthetic rugs on vinyl flooring or could it even be something about the nonslip mat beneath the rug that's causing the issue (rug and nonslip mat are both Dunelm Mill)?

[PigletJohn]

it may well be the soil pipe. If they change it, whinge and say you want proper soil pipe (not flexible) and elbow or swan-neck connectors. It will take some minutes of measuring and cutting.

Don't flush it, or turn the water on, until the drip has stopped and the joint is dry. If it then starts again, in purple, you'll have more evidence.

See if you can borrow a camera.

[BlogOnTheTyne]

Also, I don't think the cistern is over full as I can see a few centimetres of the overflow and other parts ABOVE the water level in the cistern.

Does all this imply that the waste pipe has not been fitted at an angle steep enough to take away all excess water in it?

The part of it that's visible, looks like it's at a very slight descending angle but not much more than horizontal and the part that seems to be leaking is possibly dipping slightly along that slight angle - thus perhaps creating a 'pool' of waste water?

[BlogOnTheTyne]

OK. So the fact that the leak is still going on and has been even though the toilet hasn't been flushed since yesterday, would imply that the water is not running away into the sewer but somehow pooling in the waste pipe and leakng from there onto the floor. Am I right?

Just to clarify - the toilet hasn't bene flushed since yesterday or possibly the day before and the leak is STILL occurring and the leaking fluid is the same colour as the dye I put in the pan!

There is already a different coloured dye in the cistern and so far none of this has leaked onto the floor or into the pan.

Should I still not flush, as the leak is still happening?

[PigletJohn]

don't flush or turn the water back on until some time after the dripping has stopped. When you do, the trap will be full of purple water, so put a different colour in the cistern. It is not normal for a soil connector to leak except during or just after a flush, because all the water should run away to the sewer.

If the cistern is overfull, then the excess can make its way into the pan and hence the waste pipe. The two colours will show if that is happening once you turn the water on. There is probably an open-topped vertical plastic pipe rising above the water level in the cistern, this is the overflow which, in a modern WC, spills or drips into the pan. It is not impossible to have both an overflowing cistern and a leaking soil connector. The coloured dyes will show.

[BlogOnTheTyne]

Hi PigletJohn. This is turning into a detective story! So I put green food dye on the pan and purple in the cistern.

It's almost one hour later and I think I can see the green leaked onto the white kitchen roll under the waste pipe. (I diluted it quite a bit in case the pan got stained but it's just becoming visible pale green.

The supply is still off and I haven't flushed the toilet.

I'll leave it a little longer just to be totally sure but does this imply that the waste pipe is certainly leaking?

Next question: should I turn the supply back on and should I flush - and if so, when?

Thanks.

[PigletJohn]

washing up liquid

it helps water creep through small cracks and leaks

[BlogOnTheTyne]

Thanks. What is WUL?

Will go out and see if I can get hold of some food dye. Will it stain the cistern and pan if left unflushed for some time?

My builders are not coming back until 5pm on Friday - which is very late in the day and too late, should they then go, saying everything is fixed - and it's still leaking. No one is likely to come out across the weekend and then my working week begins and need a fully functioning toilet from Monday!

[PigletJohn]

When it eventually does stop dripping, mix some warm water, red food dye and a drop of WUL in a bucket and pour it slowly down the pan, observe if it then leaks out. Stir a different colour into the cistern. Not yellow as it would not show up if it mixed into the red.

If there is no leakage an hour after the bucket, turn the supply back on for an hour and see if the cistern water is leaking out or getting into the pan (do not flush)

[BlogOnTheTyne]

The water level in the pan doesn't seem to be dropping - or not noticeably so. The waste pipe is very hard to see as it's behind boxing, so I can't see if water is lying in it.

The basin waste pipe isn't visible and the basin pipes I don't think gonear the toilet ones but I'm not sure. It's all boxed in and hard to see.

Can't take photos, I'm afraid as there's no working camera in the house and I don't use a mobile or at least not a smart phone that has functions on it.

Waiting to hear from builders as to whether anyone is coming out today and if so, when. This is all very time consuming and annoying!

Thank you for being so helpful, PigletJohn.

[PigletJohn]

It's interesting that the waste pipe is still wet. With the water supply off, I and the cistern level seemingly not dropping, where can the water be coming from? Does the water level in the pan seem to be dropping?

Does the waste pipe, especially the flexible part, look as if water could be lying in it? Is there a connection to e.g. a basin waste pipe that water could be coming from? There should not be any water in the waste except during a flush, because it should all run away towards the sewer (unless the pipes have been incorrectly run so it has to run uphill).

Take lots of photos of the pipework please.

[BlogOnTheTyne]

Bottom of supply pipe feels dry this morning. Level of cistern water seems to have stayed the same BUT there's still a leak that still seems to be coming out of the bottom of the waste pipe. It's not very bad but it's definitely wet there. The silver rope-like inlet pipe doesn't seem to be wet at all nor have a kink in it.

Is this is clear sign that it's the waste pipe leaking and not a leak from cistern or inlet pipe?

[PigletJohn]

feel the bottom of the supply pipe, underneath the service valve.

you mentioned a "concertina" pipe. I am not very keen on them, it is probably better to use rigid pipes and elbows cut to length, unless the fitting is extremely awkward. Could this flexible hose have a loop in it where water could pool? Presumably the soil pipe runs down a slope all the way.

[BlogOnTheTyne]

OK. Thanks PigletJohn. The service valve has now been off for about 5 hrs and there is STILL a leak - not that much - but enough to wet a wadge of toilet roll under the waste pipe.

Now does that mean it's NOT the waste pipe that's leaking but either the cistern or water trap or the joint in the supply pipe? If so, how do I figure out which one?

There's still no noticeable dampness on the underneath part of the cistern or the inlet pipe - only from under the waste pipe.

It's about 2 hrs since I marked the water level in the cistern. Either it's not dropped at all or possibly has by half a millimetre. Difficult to see as it's not an exact pencil mark. I suppose I'll be clearer later on or tomorrow.

[PigletJohn]

if water leaks from the trap (improbable) then the water level in the pan will drop.

You can leave the cistern for a few hours.

Maybe put a white towel under the drip. See when it stops.

[BlogOnTheTyne]

I can't tell if the water in the cistern is dropping so I'll put a pencil mark inside and watch the level. Since I last flushed the toilet, there's currently no discerible liqud coming out but it may not have been left long enough to tell.

Would this at the moment suggest that it IS the waste pipe leaking?

I ask because I've had a short email form the builder to say he'll arrange to have the waste changed and will call me tomorrow. He's only therefore going on what I've emailed him and I'm not a plumber.

Presumably they'll take the toilet off again, change the waste pipe - which will be the third one used now - and wait and see. But if I'm wrong and the leak is from somewhere else, we'll have to start again!

Wish I'd trained as a plumber!

[PigletJohn]

if the water level in the cistern drops and keeps dropping, it is leaking from the cistern

If it drops a bit and then stops, it may have been too full and releasing into the pan via the internal overflow.

If it does not drop at all, it might be the joint in the supply pipe.

[PigletJohn]

do not flush it.

[BlogOnTheTyne]

OK. I've poured more liquid cleaner (only got yellow coloured cleaner left now - no blue - so harder to see) and then turned off the service valve.

Can I just check - should I definitely NOT flush the toilet now the service valve is turned off or should I flush to clear the water (if that's what will happen) and then see what happens next? I'm not sure what's best.

Currently haven't flushed. I can't be sure that when I perceive the leak, that it's slowly seeped out from the last time I flushed or if it's an on going leak even when it's not flushed.

Overnight, it probably went about 12 hrs since the last flush and was fairly wet this morning - but might that be from the flush last thing last night or would this imply that even when not flushed, the toilet is still leaking?

I don't know how to find out whether it's the cistern or the waste that's leaking. All I know is that the entire area at the bottom of the cistern, including the nuts has been completely dry with no sign of anything dripping down from there onto the waste pipe but the underside of the waste pipe has a definable area where one part meets the next, that's wet and I think this is where liquid is coming out.

[PigletJohn]

When you turn off the service valve, it will interesting to see how long it takes for the leak to stop, and if the water level in the cistern drops.

Does the blue in the pan seem to be getting paler?

[PigletJohn]

A waste pipe (and a doughnut washer) can only leak for a short time during and after flushing. When the water they contain has leaked out, they cannot leak again until the WC is flushed and the water replenished. Only a cistern and a supply pipe have an infinite amount of water.

Post the question on Legal about a contractor who has been given opportunities to repair a defect but has been unable to fix it, and your rights to use someone else at the contractor's expense.

[BlogOnTheTyne]

They refused to let me use my experienced plumber, as they said he was much too expensive. He's not available this whole week, unfortunately.

The plumber they used is full time employed not by them but by Integral and was doing them a favour after his full working day but they said he was v experienced.

They fitted an access panel so I can access the valve to the cistern but told me not to take it off until the glue around it had dried. May try in a minute.

On a technical note, if the cistern were leaking and dripping on to the waste pipe, wouldn't the upper surface of the waste pipe be wet as well as then lower one where I can feel the wetness and wouldn't the bottom of the cistern and the nuts/screws there be wet also? They're not wet at all. So I can only conclude it's the waste pipe but am really really hoping I'm wrong. How can I clarify this?

[PigletJohn]

p.s.
The service valve needs to be positioned so that it can easily be reached and turned off by any dummy the householder without needing anything done like taking off the boxing. That's the whole point of it.

[PigletJohn]

IMO you have now given the builders a reasonable opportunity to fix the defect, and they have failed, so you are now entitled to get someone else to fix it at their expense. You might like to post a "legal" question on how this works. Take lots of photos. I would prefer to take the boxing off and leave it off until I had seen good and lasting evidence that the fault was fixed.

[BlogOnTheTyne]

So they came back a third time and 'fixed' the leak from the toilet, which they were convinced was due to a faulty 'O' ring/doughnut ring on the cistern.

....There's STILL a leak and I'm convinced it's coming from the waste pipe. When I dry everything, wait several hrs and then run my hand/tissue around the base of the cistern/screws etc - it's completely dry.

When I run my hand round the waste pipe where the harder plastic connects with the 'concertina' plastic, that's where I can feel liquid and that's where I felt it before and it's very slowly dripping onto the floor and makes no difference if the toilet is flushed or not.

I've poured blue all purpose cleaner into the toilet pan but can't tell 100% if it's this area that's leaking, as it's not blue enough to detecte a noticeable colour. I could faintly smell the cleaning fluid on the liquid leaking out but I can't be sure.

I'd like to try out your idea with dyes, PigletJohn, as I need proof of where the leak is coming from. I haven't got any food dye and it's a Bank Hol today, so nowhere open around here. Would children's paint be OK to put in the toilet pan or would this irreparably stain the pan?

I'm hesitant to call the builders as it's NY Day and they'll have had a wild night no doubt but I need to start running my business from this room/en suite toilet on Monday and need the problem solve urgently.

What should I do?

[BlogOnTheTyne]

Oh great! Just spoken again to the builder who says they think someone will come out to fix the leak on Monday afternoon! that measn it's still leaking over the next 2.5 days and the plumber who came today could have fixed it in 2 hrs today!

However, the builders didn't want to pay his rates and have cheaper people they use.

I've clarified that if there's further damage caused by the leak, then the builders will need to foot the bill. They said I have to keep an eye on it regularly and put down a towel etc. I'm a bit cross again. It could have all bene fixed by the experienced plumber today. Not at all sure how good their own plumber will be nor if he'll actually turn up on Monday at all.

Should I be worried that my builders are happy to leave a toilet leaking for another 2.5 days? The plumber here today couldn't access the isolating valave as it's behind the boxed in pipes. So water continues to drip.