What should the Council do?

[Lougle]

We were (very gratefully) offered a house by the council. We were shown the house by an OT (a 5 minute viewing to assess suitability for SN DD1). We were aware that there was lots of work being done by contractors.

We were then told, on March 2nd, that the property would be ready on March 12th. We had to accept the keys, and in doing so, rent would become payable. In fact, we had to pay 2 weeks rent in advance.

So, we got the keys at 1pm yesterday, went straight over, and stripped the entire house of wallpaper. Several layers, but the adhesive was very weak, so we were able to strip the whole house within 4 hours.

This morning we went in to use a steam wallpaper remover to finish the bits where backing paper remained, etc. As we used the scraper on the wall surface, we discovered a major problem.

The lounge has a very deep crack spanning the entire length of one wall. The plaster is coming away in all 5 rooms (3 bedrooms, lounge, dining room). We've phoned the council & they wanted to wait until 27th March to have a look. We can't have that - we have to be out of our current rental by April 2nd, and we have 3 small children.

I managed to plead with the team, and the surveyor will have a look tomorrow morning. What are they likely to do?

It surely can't be our responsibility to make the walls good? I'm currently paying two rents - the house which we can't inhabit and the one we are serving notice on.

You won't have to make the walls good, thats structural work and the responsibility of the property owner - the council.

However, as for when they have to do it I'm not sure. Do you have your new contract and associated paperwork? If you have a read through that might have something about the procedure for repairs. They will have to do it within a reasonable timescale, but one mans reasonable is an others ridiculous!

The surveyor will judge if the house is habitable and what priority the work is. This will give you an idea as to your next move.

I have the paperwork, but nothing is mentioned about walls. It says that we are entirely responsible for the internal decoration of the house.

I think the difficulty is that they cannot legally pay for the housing benefit on the new house until we have moved in. But we cannot move in until the walls are made good - it would be utter chaos with 3 small children (especially with DD1's SN -she has no sense of danger, difficult behaviour), furniture, etc.

Also, we have given notice on our current rental, and the new tenant is due to move in as soon as our tenancy notice period is up.

The council said it was ready. I don't think they were lying, at all. But should the original surveyor have tapped the walls? Just rubbing our hand over the wall, the sound changes in patches to a hollow sound. In some places, when you tap the plaster, you get big puffs of dust.

I don't know what their surveyor would look for when it is a change over of tenants. I can imagine they may not check the walls.

You will be responsible for decoration but re plastering isn't decoration so its their job.

When the surveyor comes out he will assess what needs doing then it will probably be sent for approval and asigned when it will be done.

If they say it is habitable for now and is on a wait list to be done, ask them if you paint it now to make it livable, will they re paint the new plaster for you again when they have fixed the wall.

You are their tenant now, and even though you are not living in the house yet you are paying rent and if the house is deemed unlivable they will have to get you somewhere to stay.

Thank you oreocrumbs. It's so stressful! I'll see what he says tomorrow.

Try not to worry too much, but make sure you nag them as they need nagging, and impress upon them the importance of a settled environment for your DD.

Just try to see past this annoyance and focus on the fact it will get sorted and you will be in your new home and settled soon

Hi,
somewhere on your council website there will be something about minimum letting standards or a void. That should give you information about what you can expect from your council. As far as I know, the council or social landlord is responsible for the structure of the house, and that would include any plastering except minor plasterwork.
However, I have a friend who was told that because she removed the wall paper, then she is now responsible for the re-plastering, I'm afraid
The deep crack sounds nothing to do with the removal of the wall paper though.
Good luck OP, hope it all works out for you.

Oh dear mumblejumble . Although, logically, the fact that they told us it was in 'a terrible state' decoratively, and the fact that they gave us £380 towards redecoration - they must have known we would remove the extremely dated, mismatched, torn and peeling, wallpaper. I suppose what they couldn't know is that in between layers, tenants had used polyfiller to fill gaps and cracks, holes, etc. We only realised when big chunks came out.

To clarify - the plaster didn't come off with the wallpaper itself. It was when we went to finish removing bits of backing paper and prepare the walls for painting that it became apparent that the plaster is literally 'propped up' by other plaster in places all over the walls - it isn't even adhered to the cement behind it.

a big question - the plaster is cracked and loose, but is the wall behind it cracked? Are there cracks through the bricks, or are there cracks running along the mortar between the cracks?

can you push a pencil into these cracks, and does it go right through the wall into the adjacent room?

how old is the house?

If it just needs replastering, it will dry in about a week and you can emulsion it (Supermatt, not silk). If properly done it will be smooth and flat. Plasterers prefer to re-do a room rather than patch and fill. It is rather dusty.

I think you ought to ask for rent to be suspended until the work has been done, see what they say.

p.s.

A steam stripper makes the plaster blow if it is held in one place.

Hi PigletJohn

The steam stripper didn't make it past the first wall

Well, as an update, I honestly can't fault the Council.

The surveyor arrived just after 9 am, immediately saw the problem and said that he thought it was going to take a lot to put right. The big crack in the lounge will just need to be chased out and filled, in his opinion. It isn't more than 3-4mm wide, and doesn't penetrate through to the hall, so it is limited.

He was really very nice, giving helpful suggestions in lots of different areas about what they had already done to the property, what he thought we might need to do in time, suggestions about the best way forward with fencing - really so helpful.

He told us that he would raise the job as 'urgent' (council timeline suggests that 'urgent' jobs are commenced within 5 working days), and that he thought we might get someone out early next week, if he could jiggle other jobs around.

Then, today at 4pm I had a phonecall from the contracted plasterer, to say he was outside the property, and was it convenient for me to pop down? So my lovely Mum & Dad raced to our current house so Mum could sit with the kids and Dad could come to the new house.

The plasterer said it's tricky. The job sheet says 'patch and skim as needed.' He said it's a bit of a matter of opinion as to what is 'needed'. In his view, once he starts knocking back the loose plaster, the surface it bonds to is pretty much just dust. So, he thinks it's all going to come down pretty much.

He thinks it's going to take 2 people 5 days to do the work required, and effectively it's 5 complete rooms that will need knocking back, filling and skimming, plus some patch work in the hall and stairs.

Thank you for all your advice. I have to say that I have been pleasantly surprised by the efficiency and care that the council have shown.

"So, he thinks it's all going to come down pretty much."

That's what I thought. You will be amazed (if you haven't seen it before) how fast a skilled plasterer can do a room. It makes a stunning difference. They don't like patching and filling.

Leave the internal doors and the loft hatch open until it dries pale pink (open the windows as well whenever you can) with no dark patches, and have a look in the DIY sheds for Dulux Trade Supermatt. It is not as hard-wearing as vinyl, but it is porous so the plaster can carry on drying out without pushing it off. It is cheap in common pale colours. The first one or two coats should be thinned with 10% - 20% water to soak in and seal the surface. Never apply PVA to a surface that you hope one day to paint. In a few months you can redecorate over the top with a vinyl silk or whatever of your choice if you want.

Yay for the Council. Hope it works out OP

Thank you

Yes, the surveyor said that they would give it a mist coat after it dried - is that the first coat, PigletJohn? Or would we then do the further two coats with 10%-20% water?

A "mist coat" is the correct term for the diluted coat of emulsion, I suppose because it goes on so thin, and soaks in so fast, that you can see through it and it just leaves a faint trace on the surface. You will recognise the difference, because once you have killed the suction, the dry wall no longer sucks the moisture out of your brush. I find a big brush is better than a roller for mist coats.

Plasterers use PVA glue to prime walls before plastering, but scrub any PVA they drip or splash on the surface, because it is water-soluble and will prevent emulsion soaking into the plaster, so it will wrinkle or flake off.

That's a bit confusing, isn't it? Because the data sheet for the Dulux Supermatt says that the binder is 'PVA Copolymer Emulsion'.

So how does the PVA component in the paint differ from the PVA that they use on the wall to prime it?

I don't know. I am not a paint chemist. But I do know that PVA glue on a wall, which is water soluble, is softened by the water content in the emulsion when you paint it, and it forms a barrier between the paint and the plaster, which prevents it soaking in and adhering. Vinyl emulsion, once cured, does not go soft and wash off with a damp sponge. PVA glue does.

Google "PVA Emulsion paint" for more opinions.

I used to work for HB and you can request something called a dual payment to cover both rents in the short term for exceptional circs.

V rusty so things may have changed or vary from area to area but contact your HB section and they will advise you. Don't worry there is usually something in place to help.

Afraid I can't advise on the walls though!

Oops, just seen that you've sorted it! Great news and best of luck in your new home!

Fluffy...I might still need your help

The situation with dual payment is that they will only pay the HB on the new property once we are living there. Their definition of 'living' there is that we sleep there and our belongings are there.

They will continue to pay HB on the current house until we move out - moving out being that we sleep elsewhere and our belongings are gone.

We had to take the keys on 12/03/2012. Also, to take the keys, we had to pay 2 weeks rent as an advance payment.

There is provision for an overlap only in two specific circumstances:

Overlap 1 - continued payment of HB on the old property despite living in the new property:

1. a) You can show that you had to take the 2nd property before the tenancy expired on the old property (YES, the council said 'take it or leave it')

b) You are bound to a notice period in the old property (Yes) c)You gave notice as soon as practically able (Yes, we were told verbally of the offer on 02/03/2012, gave notice that day to our landlord, but actually didn't get the offer letter until 07/03/2012) d) You have moved into the new property (No.)

Overlap 2 - Payment of HB on the new property before moving in to the property:

1. a) You are living in a property while waiting for essential adaptations to be made in the new property.

b) OR You had to take the new property tenancy before you were fit to leave hospital c) OR You expected to be able to move in, but unforseen complications in your health delay the move (ie. your discharge from hospital is set back)

The difficulty is, that we were told the property was fit to move in to. It was signed off by voids. They weren't to know that the plaster wasn't sound.

Now, we can't move in, as every room needs plaster work. We can't put flooring down until the plaster is done, surely? We can't have 3 small children living in a house full of dust either, I would think?

But, I can't see how they can pay the HB overlap in this case, because neither scenario fit. It isn't essential adaptations (all of that work was done, such as making the garden fit by grading the level, adding steps for safety, etc., etc.), but neither are we living there.

It is no longer classified as a void, and to do so would skew their reporting statistics. It has already been listed as a 'recent let' and we have been taken off the housing register, etc.

So what now? We expected to spend 2 weeks giving it everything we have to get the paint work done and carpeting in, etc., then move in and ask for overlapping benefit for the first property for the last week or so. But now, we are paying rent on 2 properties, and even if they start work on Monday that would give us 1 week from when they finish to get paintwork done, flooring in, furniture moved and totally out of the other property. What a mess

And don't paper again, just paint the plaster when it is dry!

No, never a fan of paper

Just an update, if anyone is interested

So, I phoned the housing manager to ask about rent rebate or housing benefit commencement. He confirmed that HB was not payable as we have not moved in [hmm - given the state of the place), and a rent rebate was not going to happen because:

a) Internal decoration is entirely the responsibility of the tenant.
b) We signed the tenancy agreement accepting the property as it is.

I told him that:

a) There is nothing to decorate because it's all falling off onto the floor.
b) We weren't allowed to inspect the property beforehand, so couldn't have known there were issues.

He said that he understood my point, but all I could do was write to the Property Services Manager to 'plead my case'.

Knowing the speed of paperwork admin by the Council, I decided to email instead.

At 10am the next morning, the Property Services Manager phoned me. He was a tad annoyed

He said that he was very unimpressed by the project management. In his view, the age of the property should have made them think about the walls, leading them to lifting wallpaper and surveying the walls.

He was very cross that I had been allowed to sign the tenancy when this was still outstanding. He is going to sort the rent situation next week, but in the meantime he has managed to speak to the contractors, and they have juggled their work around.

A team from the contractor is starting work on Monday morning at 9am and will stay until the work is complete.

I asked about our housing situation and he gulped a bit. He could see that we could very well be officially homeless, as the tenancy here finishes on 02/04 and the work won't be finished until possibly two weeks later (when you take into account drying time).

He begged asked me to contact my landlord and plead for an extension of the the tenancy. My landlord (who happens to be my uncle but is a bona fide landlord with 6 properties) has agreed.

They are also going to be removing and replacing the skirting boards which the contractors had left in place when they used a self-levelling compoud, which of course, meant they are now concreted in place and only half their usual depth.

All in all, this guy was fantastic. He even gave me his direct dial number and asked me to phone him personally if there were any further issues.

I am very impresed.

Good news.

sounds very promising

Fantastic news