Skirting board heating.

[pippala]

Please tell me what you know about it?
cost of installation
cost of running
energy outputs
how warm your house is with it etc etc etc!
we are renovating buy to lets atm and have never done this before and being complete novices need plenty of advice.
Many thanks x

[Scrowley]

I was thinking about them. They sounded great. But I have heard enough. Thank you for all of you constructive information...... Rads for me!

[PigletJohn]

"2. the system is fitted to external walls meaning it keeps them warm, so there is less heat loss"

doesn't make sense. A warmer external wall will lose more heat

[gelo]

theexten, I am not contradicting myself, I think you are.

Either your system is thermally insulated from he walls, in which case it won't heat them, or it isn't and it will. You stated upthread that it warmed the walls up - ergo it isn't (very well) thermally insulated from them. Yet now you are trying to tell me that there is insulation and foil, in which case (if the insulation is adequate) then the walls won't be warmed. Which is it??

Situating rads under windows is for different reasons than heating external surfaces - it's to heat the cold air falling from being in contact with the glass - ie, heating the air as soon as it is cooled.

[theexten]

Gelo you are contradicting yourself.
it is within normal practices to install heating closer to cold spots such as windows and external walls.
EcoBoard is not in direct contact with the wall and if you looked closely at the system, which we are talking about then you would understand that EcoBoard is fitted to walls with aluminium heat reflective foil stip, which runs behind heating elements just as you mention about radiator foil.

I do think you should look at the system first before you make your statement.

[gelo]

"There is nothing wrong with the information i provide."

Except there is...

"1. skirting board heating contains less water in the system. This small amount of water is heted quicker meaning less energy use by your boiler"

This is incorrect by omission, because the water will have to be heated more often, so the overall energy use by the boiler will be the same (or greater due to more heat losses through walls - see next).

"2. the system is fitted to external walls meaning it keeps them warm, so there is less heat loss"

If the walls are hotter there will certainly be more heat loss (elementary thermodynamic principles) which is why with radiators people put foil behind them to keep the heat in the room rather than in the walls. With skirting systems you can't do this, and the consequence will be hotter walls and higher heat loss through the walls, even more so if the walls don't have high U-values (eg if not cavity filled).

Also, there is nothing special about fins to aid heat exchange. Most radiators have this too, but you are making it sound as if it's some special sort of active device when in fact it's just a passive increasing surface area thing to let the heat out more quickly.

[theexten]

There is nothing wrong with the information i provide.
FishfingersAreOK, i install the system - I am not a supplier and i am not trying to sell it to anyone. Every product finds its potential buyer and everyone will stay with their own opinion.
I am not accused of you saying that PigletJohn is respected and I am just a "first time poster".

I too, agree with PigletJohn: radiators are cheap option and more traditional way of heating homes. In fact, i fit many of them but the two systems are not comparable in any way.

[gelo]

"You do not need to run copper pipes because the actual skirting has pipes integrated in it - and this is alreay in the price."

But most houses don't have copper pipes to the ends of the skirting run already in place - you still need pipes from the ends of the skirting to the boiler just the same as from the ends of the radiators to the boiler.

[FishfingersAreOK]

theexten - noone would ever pay "full price" for a radiator. Just like you would never pay "full price" for a sofa.

Stop flogging a dead horse your product . I would seriously just leave it.

PigletJohn is hugely respected on here and has background, standing and offers trustworthy advice.

[theexten]

Sorry PigletJohn but I did not mean to accuse you at all and I am not sure why you should be. The link you have provided has discounted item and the ture price is heigher then you specify because if someone reads your thread tomorrow he or she may find this offer no longer exists.

You do not need to run copper pipes because the actual skirting has pipes integrated in it - and this is alreay in the price.

just want to mention that we are talking about EcoBoard system in case you think of any other skirting systems. EcoBoard has a heat exchanger inside its profile. This is not an aluminium skirting that uses principles of conveyed heat, in which case i would agree but not entirely. Heat exchanger incorporates two copper pipes and aluminium thin fins around the pipes. The system is designed to work with low heating temperatures and this is why it is widely used with heat pumps.
Unlike radiators, its heat up time is significantly quicker. If the system is fitted around your room, the heat is distributed evenly with no cold spots. The desired room temperare reaches its comfortable level and the thermometer tells your boiler to stop. Rads require high temperatures. High temperature, as we all know, rises and as it does, it collects under your celling. This creates cold spots and your thermostat will react slowly; your boiler is still working, whereas mine has stopped meaning i am saving and you are not.

Just one other example i have:
in my home, i have radiators. When i sit in my chair my body senses different temperature to the one when i stand up. Because all the heat is gathered up above the ceiling surface, i feel warmer when i stand. Now, with underfloor heating or skirting heating you will never have this sort of uneven temperature difference. The low temperature heat is rising up slowly and evenly; your room is perfectly temperature balanced.

[Grumpla]

I'd like a solid gold radiator I think.

[PigletJohn]

theextn

You seem to be accusing me of showing low prices for radiators to illustrate how expensive the system you sell is.

I don't know why anybody would pay £150 for a radiator when it is freely available to the public for £48.99. Unless perhaps they wanted to give a misleading impression of what radiators cost. Screwfix isn't even a trade supplier. About the same price as Wickes or plumbase or B&Q

If you go to a plumbers merchant and buy enough of them for a house they will be even cheaper with free delivery.

I don't know why you complain that I don't include the price of running pipe to a radiator, when of course your water-heaters also need copper pipe run to them, and a metre of copper pipe only costs £2.50 a metre

As I said, I did not include the price of valves on your system, or on mine.

It is very wrong of you to accuse me of giving false information. Mine is accurate and can be checked on the links I provide.

I am disappointed that you have not provided any serious evidence to support the claim that your expensive system is in some way more energy-efficient than simple and economical radiators.

[theexten]

PigletJohn, you have provided a link to the radiator at discounted price. Standard, a good quality radiator will set you back at as minimum as £150. In order to install your radiator by window or external wall, you must run copper pipes. Please, when comparing and giving false information, try to be precise by revealing true costs to include radiator; copper pipes; copper connectors; pipe insulation; radiator valves etc.

This thread is coming to a hault. Many posts get deleted and if a new reader comes to read it, it becomes almost impossible to figure out what is this all about.

Thank you, OliviaMumsnet, for your message with the offer to advertise here for money.

[gelo]

I agree with piglet, costs don't stack up, it won't be more efficient and the thexten is using bad science to try and persuade otherwise.

For instance, less water in the system at any time simply means to deliver the same output heat the flow rate through the system must be greater and the boiler will have to reheat the water more often. The amount of heat delivered by the boiler will be the same - eg if the skirting has half the vol of water, it will have to go around twice as often as for the rads.

Only advantages are asthetic and possibly the cold spot argument (though if you chose well placed rads vs poorly placed skirting I suspect this may not be true either)

[PigletJohn]

In my worked example (above) the additional installation cost is a single modestly-sized bedroom needing just over 1kW would be about £400 more than using radiators.

In my whole house, I have about 8kW heat loss on an ordinary winter day, and about 12kW when very cold.

So this skirting system would cost me at least £3,200 more than using radiators, or £4,800 extra if I wanted enough power to cope with very cold winters.

If they actually were more energy efficient (for which we have seen no evidence, and I actually think is impossible) I wonder how many years it would take to save £4,800? My annual gas bill is about £600, so even if they saved 10%, they would take 80 years,

[PigletJohn]

when you say "more energy efficient than radiators" do you mean you input 1000W of heat, say, and get 1100W out; or do you mean that radiators input 10000W and output 900W or something?

or is there a reduction in waste heat going outside the heated envelope of the home with your product?

As you mention keeping the walls warm, this will of course increase heat loss to the outside, since heat transference is directly proportional to temperature difference.

your in anticipation

[MrsjREwing]

You can almost hear the slow seductive hushed tones of the sales patter!

[theexten]

Surely, efficiency is the name of the game these days. People go different routes when it comes to investing money into their homes. There are investments to simply turn your home into a functional living space (like simply installing radiators) and other ways - to gain both functionality and efficiency. This is no accident so many engineers are working hard on system improvements to satisfy today's living. Solar panels... Heat pumps... micro CHP... Are these cheap to install or buy? No. A good investment is great but great investment is eaven gtreater!

This debate seems endelss to me and i think it is worthless to continue as I am no worrier on my own in this feild agains Grumpla and PigletJohn.

PigletJohn, for your information, the temperature limiting device (in English) means a safety shut off switch. A thermostat, also know as thermometer, is a temperature controlling (monitoring) device - not a "limiting device".

[Grumpla]

Actually, I'll probably listen to pigletjohn , a regular poster on these boards who often dispenses all sorts of useful and cost-free advice.

You seem to be a new poster who is trying to give us the hard sell on a specific product.

Of course everyone is entitled to their opinion as to who is the more trustworthy of the two of you

[theexten]

it is very simple:

1. skirting board heating contains less water in the system. This small amount of water is heted quicker meaning less energy use by your boiler;
   
2. the system is fitted to external walls meaning it keeps them warm, so there is less heat loss;
   
3. system is installed in the perimeter of the rooms meaning no cold spots.
   

If this does not convince you then maybe you should speak to people who already have this system to hear what they think, their experience and if they'd like to switch back to radiators...?

[PigletJohn]

I used your calculator for a bedroom, it calculated the heat loss at 1065 Watts, which is about right, and says that with water type, the room needs 6.5metres of skirting heater, so buy 3 lengths at 2.5 metres. This exceeds the length of the room so it would go along the front wall and one other. It would have to be a wall without wardrobes or bedhead against it, and the room does not have thee unobstructed walls so it would only be possible by removing existing wardrobes.

With Electric type it would need one 2-metre length (400W) plus one 1-metre length (200W) plus one 400mm length (80W)

The cost of this per the website would be
water type
3 lengths at £148 each = £444 (don't know if this includes VAT as it is not mentioned) plus maybe some fittings and connectors, cost unknown.

electric type
2m element £65
1m element £45
400mm element £24
casing at £72 per length (not stated but I will guess 2.5m) x 2 = £144
temperature limiting device (this might be what in English we call a thermostat) £9.60
total £287.60
(don't know if this includes VAT as it is not mentioned) plus maybe some fittings and connectors, cost unknown.


Compare the cost of the water type at £444 with a steel convector radiator of 600x800mm, output 1111W at £48.99 inc VAT. I have omitted the cost of the valves since they are very unlikely to cost as much as the valves on the skirting system.

Compare the cost of the electric type at £287.60 with an electric convector at £19.99 which would be just as effective, or a low level electric heater at £ 60 that looks nicer. Either can be mounted on the wall.

You can of course buy more expensive panel heaters if you are anxious to spend more.

Personally if I was fiting a radiator I would fit a larger one at insignificant extra cost, since it would have the power to heat the room fast from cold, even in abnormally cold conditions when extra heat is required. This would cost quite a bit more with the skirting system since the parts are so expensive.

[OliviaMumsnet]

Hello theexten
Sorry but we don't allow folk to advertise on the boards, so we will shortly be deleting your post. We'll email you.
Thanks

[PigletJohn]

What makes you imagine that radiators are a thing of the past?

You use the term "energy efficient heating." When you have calculated the heat loss of a house, why do you think an expensive heating method will be more energy-efficient than an ordinary method?

[MrsjREwing]

How much extra does it work out for an average 3 bed semi?

[PigletJohn]

I am against anything that costs a great deal of extra money for no corresponding benefit.

If I see a skirting system that costs no more to install or run than conventional radiators I will have no objection. This has not yet happened.