Please help me with tricky kitchen design

[Pannacotta]

I'm really struggling to come up with a decent design for our new kitchen. As we may need to make some structural changes, local kitchen designers won't help until we have a finalised room plan - I've loaded photos of the existing floor plan onto my profile, hope they're clear enough to see.

We did ask an architect to do some drawings but his plans were very modern, not really what we were after.

It's an odd shaped room and a bit small for quite a big family home.
There is no proper utility room at the mo, the washer/drier are stacked in the long cupboard, which has a door opening into the kitchen, which just eats into the limited floor space.

We need to include a kitchen table to seat 6, 8 at a push.

Any suggestions on how to arrange/reconfigure the space? Also where we might create a better utility area (perhaps in the downstairs bathroom if we take out the shower)?

Thanks in advance.

I've PMed you.

Thanks lala, have replied...
Decor, you're right, the study is big, we could double it up as a den, though it has a bay window and double doors to the funny add-on/cupboard at the side, plus the door in is the middle, so we'd need to make some changes.
The current den would be good as a dining room, not sure how mich use it woudl get though - we dont have dinner parties etc now we have small DCs!

Grendel there is a decorative arch/alcove infront of the boiler cupboard so woudl be hard to knock through and very pricey I think.
There's a south facing window within the large bay though (opposite the door) so the room is light.
How have your parents arranged their space? Does it flow well?

Here's my idea (without any idea of the structural possibilities of it)

s1140.photobucket.com/albums/n571/teapotch/?action=view&current=p_kitchen.jpg

The key thing is that you swap the location of the door into the cupboard, so that rather than being on the right hand side, it's on teh left hand side. That allows you to put a long run of units along the back wall, where your bookcase and your fridge are now. Then you remove what looks on the plan like the remains of a fireplace, and have a long run of units on the wall facing you as you come through the archway. That gives you lots of storage space, plus you've got the cupboard and the understairs cupboard to act as larders and general storage areas. Then if you like, you can knock out the bay of the kitchen, and have French windows along the back, possibly with a little veranda to feel in keeping with the Victorian house. Maybe this kind of thing painted white, instead of bifold doors - www.oakconservatories.co.uk/images/portfolio/orangery/orangery-conservatory-design-01M.jpg

You move your washing machine into the shower room and put in a big mucky sink for washing muddy boots.

We don't have a butler's sink for washing muddy things, sadly, as it's the one thing I would like I don't have - but we do have an outside tap and drain by the back door, which we use for that purpose.

My parents house was the same layout as yours, but with the entrance at the side, and the hall shifted round by 90 degrees, so the loo was between the sitting room and dining room, not between the sitting room and the kitchen. To be honest, it didn't flow very well, because it was clearly designed for you to have a servant and not need to go in the kitchen, which was made deliberately awkward to get to.

Thanks Grendel, moving the cupboard door to the hall is an option, would give more space in the kitchen. Not sure if keeping the cupboard makes the kitchen a bit poky though...

I think I need to find a good builder who is happy to talk through options with me, havent found that person yet...

I cant open your links though, was keen to see what you had in mind!

Oops - here's another go

s1140.photobucket.com/albums/n571/teapotch/

Thanks, I realised after my last post that I had misunderstood you - i thought you meant to move the door so it opened from the hall, which would make a good utilty cupboard, for eg hoover/mop etc etc.
Yes we could move the door along as per your plan, prob the cheapest option though am not sure we'd need to keep the cupboard if we have a pantry as well.

There are almost too many options I think, though whatever we choose will be loads better than it is now!

Well, what would you ideally like in the way of cupboards, not having cupboards, etc? I think that's all that matters - and then you can try and get as close to it as you can.

My sister says it's amazing how many people find themselves building something they don't like at all, because it's what their architects thought was appropriate / sexy.

If you asked the poster formerly known as Porridge, she might know a good Norwich builder?

Good question Grendel.
It would be good to have storage in just one or two places rather than dotted around the room, I suppose I'm not sure yet where we should have a larder/pantry, if we go for under the stairs then this cupboard isnt needed for food storage.

Its also working out what is more important, creating a large/airy room open to the sitting room or simply making it a super efficient kitchen. DH no help as he just wants "an easy life", his quote!

Will be in touch re garden meet up, DS1 has just got over chicken pox so am bit disorganised (no child free time until today!).

Oh dear, sorry to hear about the chicken pox! You must be snowed under...

I'll try and take some photos of our kitchen at some point, and it might give you some ideas.

The rooms are really big and, as you have space for a table in your current kitchen, you have lots of period detailing in the drawing room and you wouldn't get the benefit of the rooms at the rear opening onto the garden at the back, then I would keep them separate. It would also make it difficult to keep the downstairs bathroom (even if that ends up being something else, if the rooms were to be combined and you would have the problem of the structural pillar that might become intrusive in an open plan layout.

Am I being really thick or have you not posted your architect's plans? All I could see was his/her outline of the room but nothing about what s/he would do instead - am I missing something?

Pannacotta your house looks similar to ours and so does your kitchen.I realise many options have been mentioned and i don't fully understand all the suggestions so please feel free to ignore!.I would level out and extend the back of the house squareing off if possible.With a glass roof so utilising the light for a dining area.Use shower room as a utility and relocate toilet to under the stairs if possible.Your kitchen plans will change thru' the process[well oure certainly have].The architect if you have paid him a fee should talk thru' the drawings with you and should update them until you are totally happy.I could never get builders to commit to deciding a design -they all didn't want the responsibility.Finally get a really good architect -one who's designs you really like- as i have fallen afoul of that one.

This may be nonsense - but could you remove the wall to the under-stairs cupboard & fit larder units that pull out into the room. Then in the doorway/arch area you could put the washer & dryer & probably fit brooms/hoover etc as well.

That would really streamline the storage

Katy I dont think we can take too much of that wall out as it backs onto the staircase, but I know what you mean about rationalising the storage.
teta I agree with you, the only other space for the loo is really the long cupboard, which could be re-worked with a door from the hall, but this does infringe on the kitchen space.
lala, if we were to leave the rooms separate, where would you have the doors to kitchen and sitting room? The current sitting room doors are in the middle of the room, which cuts into the space and makes it hard to fit in a sofa on that side, we're putting in a wood burner so would like to have plenty of seating space.

I think the drawing room is so big that you don't really need to put the furniture around the edges (in fact it might look a bit like an old people's home if you did that ). I would put a cluster of seating in the middle of the room near the fireplace (maybe two sofas facing each other or a U of seating) and then create some different seating areas. Perhaps a really comfortable chair or pair of chairs with a coffee table and a floor-standing lamp for a reading area, maybe another couple of chairs facing out to the garden? The drawing room doors look as if they are doubles on the floorplan and I think they are well placed - you can open them up and take in the whole room rather than creep in one corner. If you moved them too far either way then you would have them too close to the fireplace which would just look odd or they would be nearly opposite the door on the facing wall which would create a kind of corridor effect between those two points.

WRT the kitchen, I would get rid of the long cupboard against the hall wall as I think that will make it difficult for you to fit a really comfortably-sized dining table in and, with a decent design you could get all your storage in the other side of the room. I would close up the arch to the hall and move the door closer to the stairs end of the room.

So, come on, what were the architect's ideas?

Thanks lala.

Re the doors, they are small doubles which we took out - wrong proportions and made from rippled glass, yuck!
Where the opening is at the moment you can't fit in a sofa, the wall is too short, which seems wrong - had wanted to have sofas opposite each other as you say. I thought if the doors faced each other you'd get the benift of the light between the two rooms.

The architect's plans were too small to get a decent photo and I don't have them on disc - he wasn't really a helpful sort...

He suggested bringing in the bay in the kitchen, adding bi-fold doors all along that wall and creating a deck in the courtyard with a hatch down to the basement (there are steps down to the basement, next to the kitchen door steps). I wasn't too keen on any of this and he wasnt up for altering the plans.

He also suggested opening up both kitchen and sitting room, putting in bi-fold wooden doors to mirror the folding shutters at the windows. But he kept the loo at the end, which I do think might feel a bit weird, esp if both rooms were pretty much open plan. He suggested having a large dining table in the south side of the sitting room, which would be right next to the steps to the loo, which seems a bit wrong somehow.

I meant the doors in the drawing room (door into it and then door in the little bit off the end) being almost opposite - that would create a corridor at the back of the room. If you put the door in the middle of that kitchen wall onto the hall, I think it would block what you could put in front of it - it would break up a run of cupboards or you would end up walking around a table.

If you look at some photographs of grand old houses they always had puddles of furniture in their drawing room - one main seating area and then ancillary seating - and, if it were mine, that is what I would aim to do in yours as it is really generous.

Oh I see, I hadnt considered the door to the lobby and corridor effect.

What I cant get my head round it how to create a decent seating area close to the fire with the doors as they are, there isnt room for a decent sized sofa on the hall side, which makes the room seems badly proportioned.
It feels like the doors need to move along, perhaps its just a question of shunting them up a bit...

Also at the moment the sitting rooms doors face a blank wall, so not a great view from the sofa opposite, would be nice to see through to the kitchen.

Will have to mull it over.

Thanks for all your advice though, is reaqlly helpful to talk it through.

You could put an L-shaped sofa either facing fireplace with shorter side with back to window and pair of chairs with back to hall wall, or two small sofas in similar configuration and one large armchair with back to hall.

I'd put a great picture or shelves of books or something on the wall opposite the drawing room door rather than put the kitchen door there if it bothers you but why should it? Do you sit with the door wide open? If the door is now a single door, could you just turn it so if you are sitting kind of opposite and it is ajar you just see the back of the door rather than the hall corridor?

Yes an L-shaped sofa would work there.

The view of the wall does bother me, not sure why. We took off the existing double doors as they were so ugly, so at the mo the room is open to the hall and the wall. The doorway is too low and too small for the room, the windows are very tall and the other doors off the hall are also high, so I think we need to match up. To me it feels like a big room like this should have double doors, a single door would seem mean.

I think I probably need to find another architect who is a bit more flexible than the last one, and talk things options. It is quite a complicated house and I think it needs a fair bit of tweaking to make it work.

Could you get beautiful antique double doors with stained glass in or plain carved wood.There are special door companies selling these.I would go for two fireside armchairs and a high-backed sofa like a knole style - to add cosiness as your back will be exposed to the door and that feels a little strange without a buffer.Access to the boiler should be from the utility not from the drawing room so the wall should be levelled off and used for bookcases and a special reading area.I would also put a lovely painting or beautiful mirror opposite the door 0pening.Its like playing with dolls houses isn't it this virtual planning?

teta yes great idea, don't suppose you can recommend anyone door suppliers?

The boiler is on the dividing wall between utility and cupboard, these rooms are on different floor levels (due to access to basement outside), so cant do much there without going to huge expense, though we could move the boiler I suppose. Though there is a detailed arch/alcove on that far wall which I'd like to keep, it's a nice feature.

And yes good idea re a painting/mirror on the wall opposite the doors, that would make it a better view.

Yes it is like playing dolls houses, my Mother told me I used to make 3D dolls houses complete with furniture when I was little!!

I have got 2 places that sell antique doors.One is arcreclamation.com and the other is strippadoor.co.uk.Its also worth visiting your local reclamation yard as i wouldn't like to spend a lot of money without seeing a door in real life.A few months ago i saw lots of reclaimed doors on a website ,but i don't seem to have saved it sadly.I will keep on looking though.The alternative is commissioning a pair of doors to size and using original stained glass methods or actual old glass customised to fit.
I used to love playing with my dollies and their pretty dresses.Now i love pretty furniture and fabrics sadly.But i have just ordered 2 Brora dresses that look pretty on the web site [but may look like a dogs dinner on me!]

I think that Teta and Lala's ideas sound lovely.

Definitely double doors with beautiful stained glass should go in to the drawing / sitting room. And then a Knole sofa facing a lovely painting, plus a couple of armchairs. And I love the idea about walling up the door from your stupid boiler cupboard into the drawing room to create a reading nook.

Surely it can't be that expensive to move a boiler from one wall to another? I would imagine it's a case of draining a system, disconnecting pipes, putting extension pipes in, and then attaching the boiler to them, which isn't that big a job as far as I know.
I'm constantly shuffling pipes and radiators around rooms in our house, and it makes a massive difference.

p.s. your DH may not be interested, but a load of random strangers on the Internet are having a lovely time with your house!