DS making "offensive" remarks to another child??

[MummyPenguin]

Okay, this might be long so I apologise in advance.

DS in in year 4. At the moment they are doing a topic on the war (think it's WW2) and are laerning a lot about what went on at the time and the English defeating the Germans and so on.

Last night I had a phone call from a Mum of a boy in DS's class who said that as he sat down to do his homework on the topic, her DS said that my DS had said something along the lines of "if you're German you should leave the country." Apparently, the other boy's Grandmother was present when he repeated the remark - and she's German. We didn't know that, obviously. It seems the Grandmother became very upset, and the boy refused then to complete the homework.

My initial reaction is that it's one of those situations where my DS has said something without realising that it may be mildly offensive to others, and he hasn't grasped the full meaning of what he's said.

However, the other boy's Mum is making a real meal out of it and is going to see the class teacher. This annoys me, as the class teacher is new to the school so doesn't know the children well, and I don't want him to form the wrong opinion of my DS who wouldn't dream of hurting another person's feelings. I've never had any trouble in school to do with him being unpleasant. I took a letter in to school this morning to be given to the class teacher, in which I described what had happened and the telephone call I'd had from the boy's Mum. The Mum will probably see the teacher after school today, so, for my position, I wanted to 'get in first' if you like, and explain that my DS didn't mean it the way she's making it sound. I also said to the teacher in the letter that I am happy to see him 'should he feel it necessary.'

I just feel that the other Mum is being completely oversensitive. She did say to me on the phone that she feels that my DS said it without malice, so why then didn't she just explain that to her DS without dragging me and the teacher into it? Okay, it's her perogotive to take it up with me and the teacher, but I do feel it was un-neccesary. It sounds like she's upset her own DS now by over dramatising it.

I have taken my DS aside, and explained a few things to him and told him that I know he didn't mean it nastily, but in future it's best not to pass remarks about other people's culture, race etc.

I think the Mum is going to seek me out after school. Asd far as I'm concerned, the subject's closed. I'm certainly not going to go over it with her again. She was on the phone for about 15 mins last night giving it the bleeding heart routine, and I was trying to dish up dinner. The whole thing has really annoyed me.

Also, how do I know that my DS hasn't just said something in general about the war that has been misconstrued by the other boy? Why should I just take hers and her Son's word for it?

What do others think?

[lulumama]

mummypenguin - if your child had been insulted,even if it was inadvertently , you would appreciate an apology, i would think. the other mum would appreciate it, and hopefully you can all move on from this.

[lulumama]

x post

[MummyPenguin]

OrmIrian - thanks for your post of 12.51:52

I think that sums it up.

[WorkersforfreEdam]

I think a Catholic school has to be even more sensitive re WW2 given the less-than-admirable behaviour of the then Pope. And links between the church and Nazis. AND particularly the long history of prejudice against the Jews in Catholicism ('they killed Jesus' and all that rubbish).

[BobbyGrantycal]

MummyPenguin - I think he ought to apologise too. Even if he didn't mean it.

I have taught WW2 to years 5 and 6 and both myself and my colleagues go to great lengths to talk about how the Nazi party represented a particular group of people at a particular time in history. ie not talking about 'the Germans'.

Not sure how the fact that the teacher is 'new to the school' would make him approach the subject unfairly or insensitively....

[MummyPenguin]

Worksfor Edam - I think you're post is quite strongly worded - he is an 8 year old boy after all.. We aren't to know the Granny's circumstances. If an adult had passed the remark, she may well get upset, but perhaps she too should just take it as the words of a child who didn't realise the implications.

The grey areas are the problem - I don't know exactly what was said between the two boys, I don't know exactly how the topic is being taught, and what opinions DS may have formed from the lessons.

Anyway, I'm not going to worry too much more about it. I'll see what occurs this afternoon.

[OrmIrian]

I can see that the other mum has overreacted and made it official in a way. So it is more difficult to apologise sincerely. But it is neccesary.

BTW I'm not sure that it's always neccessary to apologise for 'offending' someone inadvertently. Some people get offended about the oddest things which no-one could possibly now about. At my DD's first school b'day party I provided ordinary food (ie sandwiches, cake, crisps etc). One of the boys had a nut allergy of which his mother had not informed me. But she took huge offence that I hadn't provided nut-free food. I would willingly have done so if I had known. She came stalking into the party to find me and tell me off! I did apologise because it's my default reaction to someone's distress but I am damn sure I shouldn't have had to. In fact it still rankles now ...sorry slight hijack....but apologies aren't always essential.

[MummyPenguin]

Well perhaps he (the teacher) didn't, Bobbygrantcal. What I meant by that is that we don't know his teaching methods. Perhaps he's handled it a bit insensitively.

[MummyPenguin]

Also, Bobbygrantycal - yrs 5 and 6 would have a fuller grasp of the topic and all it's implications and meanings etc. Remember, my DS's class are fresh out of year 3.

[AnnieBesant]

But this comment, if made, isn't an odd thing to get offended about.

[EricL]

My 9 year old is reading a book at school about the German occupation of Poland from the Poles perspective.

It is full of examples of how nasty and cruel the Germans were to ordinary people. I fully expect her, as a child, to have negative thoughts about them because they are hurting the lead child characters that she has grown fond of, and to make comments about this to her classmates.

It is the teachers responsibility when in class to explain that this is all true, but that times have moved on and you can't dislike someone who is German just cos of what their ancestores did.

It is the responsibilty of the parent when they are reading at home to also explain all the issues raised as they read and explain how times have moved on.


This woman and her Gran are being extraordinarily silly in trying to make out that there is anything malicious or cruel in what your child has said. He is just reacting to those historical facts from a childs perspective.

I'm sure your school will see sense and dismiss this stupid womans dirt kicking. If the Granny is going to take offence at evry negative comment about the Germans in this context then she shouldn't be working with the kids whilst this historical topic is being studied.

[OrmIrian]

No. It isn't annie. Even though it was probably done innocently and by a child.

I was responding to the general theme that all offence caused had to be apologised for no matter how inadvertent or minor.

[BobbyGrantycal]

MummyPenguin. I think you need to have a good chat with ds, along the lines of what Eric suggested. Also a chat with the teacher to ensure that ds is getting the right end of the stick, so to speak

[Threadworm]

Because the subject matter of the family's sensitivity is so very upsetting and difficult (racism, Nazism, war) the thread has naturally become quite intense.
But we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that this was basically a misunderstanding on someone or other's part, and that no offence was intended. MummyP has already said that 'sorry if what I said upset you' is in order, and that seems to fit the bill.

I just have this sad picture in my mind of a perfectly well-intentioned little boy being sucked up into a hugely sensitive set of issues.

[OrmIrian]

So do I threadworm

[WorkersforfreEdam]

Not particularly strongly worded, I didn't think, it was a 'very bad' thing to say. As in, negative, potentially upsetting, blah blah blah. I didn't say the little boy was 'very bad' because I doubt he intended to upset anyone.

[WorkersforfreEdam]

'Very bad' for me would also mean ds telling anyone they were ugly, or smelled, or critcising their family IYSWIM. So not condemning your little boy out of hand, I hope!

[TheSocialistWorker]

I agree with Lulumama - your boy said an offensive thing. He is young and doesn't realise but now is a good time for a lesson.

If it were my child I would be mortified that they had offended the german family and would do my best to appease them.

It is similar as if he had said "You are black and you should leave the country." You wouldn't want to dismiss it as a childish insult. You would want to teach him why that is unacceptable.

German people get lots of shit about their nationality and are obviously sensitive about the war.

I also agree that this is a very young age for such a difficult topic.

[Tortington]

the child should apologise for the upset caused - even if it was not deliberate.

If it were me in that situation i wuld write a letter to the school somewhere in it it would read.

although my son did not diliberatley cause offense i can appreciate that this could have caused upset and for this i am sorry.

{then nicking lulumamas phrasiology}
i think it is a very salutory lesson about resepct for other cultures and nationalities.
He said it in the context of being appalled at what Nazi Germany did in the second world war, but here is a great opportunity to see that germans are not all the same, and to learn about acceptance.


I think if your son doesn't apologise it will make you look bad in the eyes of the school and more importantly it may give rise to your son thinking that its ok....if he didn't know better.

of course ignorance in society at large isn't and shouldnt be an excuse. and therefore i think an apology to the effect of the above will help you much in the eyes of the school and your son.

[TheSocialistWorker]

I remember when I was at primary school we were studying the Romans and because I was a Roman Catholic I got beaten up (chased up a ladder and made to jump off IIRC) for being a "Roman" and therefore part of a rampaging army.

Yes it was "childish nonsense" but that didn't make it any easier for me.

[Tortington]

and now your a commie

[TheSocialistWorker]

[MummyPenguin]

Thanks for that, Eric (that book sounds terribly heavy for a 9 yo though!!) I'm glad you see the other family's reaction the same way I do. It's become such a hornet's nest now. I will speak to DS again just so he's getting a balanced opinion.

UPDATE!! Have just this minute had DS's teacher on the phone. He said that he has spoken to both boys about what happened, and that my DS was upset at the thought that he had upset someone. The teacher said that it has now been smoothed over between the boys, the other boy realises that no harm was meant, and my DS no doubt realises that the comment was inappropriate.

The teacher said that as far as he's concerned, there's no problem. He did say that they are teaching the topic in a balanced way, and doesn't want the children feeling that anyone is bad etc.

I feel better. Now the teacher just has to deal with the other boy's Mum...

[slalomsuki]

You could suggest that if the grandmother is so offended that she offers to go in to the school to talk to the class as part of their learning about what it is like to be German during or after the war.

I would say that you say sorry, get your son to apologise and then forget it

[Tortington]

ah good. happy ending