DS making "offensive" remarks to another child??

[MummyPenguin]

Okay, this might be long so I apologise in advance.

DS in in year 4. At the moment they are doing a topic on the war (think it's WW2) and are laerning a lot about what went on at the time and the English defeating the Germans and so on.

Last night I had a phone call from a Mum of a boy in DS's class who said that as he sat down to do his homework on the topic, her DS said that my DS had said something along the lines of "if you're German you should leave the country." Apparently, the other boy's Grandmother was present when he repeated the remark - and she's German. We didn't know that, obviously. It seems the Grandmother became very upset, and the boy refused then to complete the homework.

My initial reaction is that it's one of those situations where my DS has said something without realising that it may be mildly offensive to others, and he hasn't grasped the full meaning of what he's said.

However, the other boy's Mum is making a real meal out of it and is going to see the class teacher. This annoys me, as the class teacher is new to the school so doesn't know the children well, and I don't want him to form the wrong opinion of my DS who wouldn't dream of hurting another person's feelings. I've never had any trouble in school to do with him being unpleasant. I took a letter in to school this morning to be given to the class teacher, in which I described what had happened and the telephone call I'd had from the boy's Mum. The Mum will probably see the teacher after school today, so, for my position, I wanted to 'get in first' if you like, and explain that my DS didn't mean it the way she's making it sound. I also said to the teacher in the letter that I am happy to see him 'should he feel it necessary.'

I just feel that the other Mum is being completely oversensitive. She did say to me on the phone that she feels that my DS said it without malice, so why then didn't she just explain that to her DS without dragging me and the teacher into it? Okay, it's her perogotive to take it up with me and the teacher, but I do feel it was un-neccesary. It sounds like she's upset her own DS now by over dramatising it.

I have taken my DS aside, and explained a few things to him and told him that I know he didn't mean it nastily, but in future it's best not to pass remarks about other people's culture, race etc.

I think the Mum is going to seek me out after school. Asd far as I'm concerned, the subject's closed. I'm certainly not going to go over it with her again. She was on the phone for about 15 mins last night giving it the bleeding heart routine, and I was trying to dish up dinner. The whole thing has really annoyed me.

Also, how do I know that my DS hasn't just said something in general about the war that has been misconstrued by the other boy? Why should I just take hers and her Son's word for it?

What do others think?

[Cammelia]

Of course children should learn about ww2, most find it extremely interesting. When dd started learning about it we went to see some things in Northern France and she had already learnt some when I took her to Anne Frank House when she was 6.

[harrisey]

Yes before you know it you are dividing into MacDonalds and Campbells and its Glencoe all over again!

I did hear an anecdotal story of someone who went to a B&B in Glencoe to see a sign "No Dogs, No Bikers, No Campbells" and as she was a Campbell she decided to go elsewhere!

[cluelessnchaos]

Thats true harrisey, I remember when we were at school we learned about the Highland Clearances when the Lairds cleared the crofters off the land, and the class quickly turned into a rabble as to whos family were arsitocracy and who was a lowly farmer.

[harrisey]

I think I have to agree with those who have said that this is far too young to be teaching this subject. My dh's Dad is German and dh has a very obviously German name (as do I now!) and he got a lot of stick at school in teh late 70s about being German.

My dd1 was in a very small primary for p1 and all children were in together - the older girls in the class were doing ww2 and obviously she heard a lot of the lessons as she was doing her own work. Though it was dealt with well as far as I can see, she did come home saying things like 'But Opa is German and he's nice' and 'are the Germans allowed to have war memorials like we do?'

I think it is very easy to think of WW2 as long ago and far away now, but there are still a lot of people alive today who were seriously involved in it - dh's Grandma lives in the UK now and she was in the Hitler Youth (because you jusr had to be, a lot of the time, and she was only 15 when she joined and what did she really know?), and dh's Aunt was born in an Air Raid shelter during the firebombing of Dresden. Its too easy to pick up the "Allies Good/Germans Bad" tagline, when, though not on the same scale, we did some pretty ghastly stuff in war (because that is what happens in wars) ourselves.

[MummyPenguin]

No it's not, oh God, I had a feeling that comment was going to get me into trouble - me and my big gob again wasn't referring particularly to this thread even - just saying that we all know what MN can be like at times. Shall we leave it now? Please? or shall we just have a good old fashioned slanging match and get this thread to 1000 posts?

[seeker]

"I often find that there are many posters who can't wait for any opportunity to jump on someone and start puffing out their chests and belittling people."

Er - is this the same as not agreeing with you?!

Just asking!

[MummyPenguin]

I appreciate that, Clueless, it was big of you. I too don't want to fight with anyone over this. I have considered this thread in great detail and came to the conclusion that perhaps it wasn't my best idea to post it. MN can be an unpredictable place, and sadly, I often find that there are many posters who can't wait for any opportunity to jump on someone and start puffing out their chests and belittling people. I'm not saying you're one of them, but you know what I mean.

Anyway, back to the subject in hand, I did have a good talk to DS yesterday after I picked him up to see how things had gone with the teacher and it was all okay. I then took the opportunity to have a talk about us accepting and tolerating people of differnt countries, cultures etc. It has been a lesson, and he's now seen how and why his remark caused offence.

The Mum did really over-react, but there you go, each to their own. Interestingly enough, her DS and mine came out of school today huddled together in deep conversation! Sometimes kids can teach us all a lesson.

[cluelessnchaos]

I dont want to get into a fight over this, and I think I said I didnt believe your son meant any malice, racism, hate, children rarely do. I would just use the situation as a learning opportunity for my child.

I also cant really see what the other mum did wrong, many have said the subject is inappropriate for this age group, so the fact it was causing tensions out of school, should be reason enought to bring to the teachers attention. If she had gone to the school and not spoken to you would you not have been more annoyed.

And as for my remark on the subject being closed, it was bitchy and childish and I am sorry.

[MummyPenguin]

Thank you for that post clueless. Can I just reiterate - again (perhaps you'd like to read some of my earlier posts?) That DS has offered his apologies, which has satisfied the boy, the teacher and me, as he did it in such a way as to say "I'm sorry that what I said offended you, it wasn't my intention." As I've already said, when I spoke to the Mother on the telephone when she made her initial call, I did actually say to her that I regretted her Mother's upset and to pass on our apologies. The school haven't insisted that he make a full and grovelling apology, so presumably they have the same opinion as me on the subject.
If that's not satisfactory, then I'm not really sure what more we can do.

Also, when I said the subject is closed, I meant as far as the school and the other Mother are concerned. We can discuss it on here all day if we've all really got the time.

I think we all need to remember that this was a throwaway remark made by a little boy who has been studying a difficult and heavy subject, and whilst referring to it in the playground, has got the wrong end of the stick somewhere along the line and worded it badly. It wasn't a defiant act of racism, hate, malice or any of those things. They are just children.

[OrmIrian]

but clueless, don't you think it would have been better to keep it out of school? As soon as it becomes official - ie 'you have offended me and I want you punished for it and humiliated into the bargain', the offender gets defensive. It's hard to sincerely apologise when it's being forced out of you and you feel resentful. I think an apology is neccessary but it should have come from the child and mummypenguin not forced by the mother and the school.

Anyway presumably it's all sorted now..

[cluelessnchaos]

I dont think the earlier posts were being hard on MPs son, I think the overriding opinion was he had made a slip of the tongue but because that had caused upset and been found offensive he should have the chance to make amends, at what point do we teach kids to take responibility for their actions, and I also think this was a valuable opportunity to teach the more difficult aspects of the war. Never mind.

And MP funny how the subject is closed unless someone agrees with you.

[paolosgirl]

Could I just add my tuppence worth, without wishing to cause any offence at all.

It wasn't the English who defeated the Germans - it was the UK (and a whole lot of other countries, of course). There were a lot of Scottish (my relatives included), Welsh and Irish soldiers there too, some of whom were lucky to come back - and others not so lucky (again, my relatives included )

[professorplum]

I've got Hope and Glory on video. Lots of sex and swearing.

[MummyPenguin]

Thanks StrawberryMartini. Yes, apparently they're going to be shown extracts from a film called 'Hope & Glory' which has a 15 certificate the letter home did say that the extracts will be suitable for their viewing.

[StrawberryMartini]

Yes I think it's too young - when I taught Primary we covered WW2 in year 6 - and even then I think they were only just old enough to cope with it (I showed them selected parts of schindlers list and they were obviously moved). But IMHO year 4 is too young. God when I taught year 3 they didn't even know they lived in England, let alone have any knowledge of other countries / nationalities. I think some of the earlier posts were too harsh on your son. And I think the mum of the other boy completely over-reacted!

[MummyPenguin]

Well, as I said earlier, it's pretty much sorted now. The boys are okay with each other, the teacher doesn't think it's a problem. As for those who have said "if he bumped into someone/trod on their toe would you not expect him to apologise?" That's a completely different scenario. And for the poster who said "when your dc are racially abused"... hardly. It was purely a remark made by an 8 yo boy having learnt something of what is a difficult and complex subject. It was a sweeping statement which has been completely taken out of context. It's also worth me pointing out that he didn't directly address it to the boy or his family, it was something that was said in the presence of a boy who's Grandmother happens to be German and is very sensitive about it. DS wasn't to know that, it was just unfortunate.

Also, when I spoke to the Mother on the phone last night and she told me that her Mother had become upset, I did actually say to her that I hope her Mother feels better about it soon and to pass on our apologies.

DS has spoken to the boy at school and said that he didn't mean to cause any harm.

For the record, no, he's not perfect.

As far as I'm concerned now, the subject is closed.

[FrannylinePankhurst]

Am I wrong in thinking that 8 or 9 is really TOO YOUNG to be covering such a sensitive and complex subject as the 2nd world war?

I am not really surprised to hear of a child this age making offensive or sweeping statements after being faced with such a tricky subject

[minorityrules]

It doesn't mean he is wrong and bad to have slipped up and said somehting the other family were offended by, it happened and they were

The girl on BB that got thrown out for using the 'N' word, she wasn't being malicious or saying it to offend but to the others and the public, it was wrong and she shouldn't have said it and now knows how wrong she was

You need to get over 'he wasn't being horrid' feeling and make sure he apologises and means it (and you should too)

It is possible to hurt and offend without meaning too and it is a good lesson for your son to be aware of how things can be taken

[Twiglett]

I really truly and fervently believe that if your child is as sensitive and not wishing to cause hurt as you say he is then he would want to apologise for inadvertently causing hurt

I think refusing to accept that anyone could be hurt by your child's actions, whether meant or not, is rather blinkered

I do not understand why you are so vehemently opposed to him apologising .. if he had accidently bumped into someone and they had ended up hurt I am sure you would expect him to apologise, so what is different?

It could sound from the outside like you do not recognise your child's mistakes because he is perfect .. which is not an attitude any parent I know cares to give

[professorplum]

MummyPenguin, the other family doesn't really know your ds the way you do. They don't have the conviction that you have that your ds didn't mean to upset their dc. As far as they are concerned, your ds has made a very offensive remark and you are defending him. Its extremely frustrating when your dc is racially abused and the other family brush it aside while your dc weeps. Your dc has offended their dc and while it might not have been intentional, he did do it. In this case the other dc feelings should take precedence over yours. If your ds is as nice as you say he is then I'm sure he would want to apologise for causing offence.

[fireflyfairy2]

I would make my ds apologise. What he said hurt someone else, whether he meant it or not.

[Cammelia]

MummyPenguin, whilst I do completely agree that the other family could have handled this better, at least you were made aware of the situation by the other mother. She could have gone into school and made a big complaint without letting you know first. So you had the opportunity to smooth things over, which you did. However, being so entrenched in the idea that no apology should be forthcoming from your ds is making you sound as bad as her.

[seeker]

It wasn't sarcastic - honestly, although re-reading it I can see how it might have sounded that way. I really mean that I admire the mummy-tigerish mummies that have complete faith in their dcs. I think it must be wonderful to have a mother like that. I know I go too far the other way, and I'm inclined to assume that any issue is my child's fault until proved otherwise. And I have occasionally royally screwed up because of it. So, no sarcasm intended. Sorry.

[MummyPenguin]

Im not sure if that last post was sarcastic Seeker....

The thing is, I've explained the situation as well as I can on this forum, but to really understand the situatuion, and my reluctance that DS offer an apology, you'd have to know my DS, know me, and know the other parties invovlved. I was 100% sure that DS didn't say whatever he said intetionally to cause upset, so therefore did nothing wrong, because he's just not that sort of child. He is himself sensitive and has a very kind nature. I think the fact that he became upset at the thought that he would have caused upset when the teacher adressed it with him speaks volumes.

[seeker]

Well done the teacher. And I admire you, Mummy Penguin for being able to be so sure your son did nothing wrong. I don't think I could be.