Clash with teacher and principal over .... textbooks. AIBU? Help meeting tomorrow!

[TheAussieProject]

I have reached an impasse with my son's teacher and principal and I honestly don't know if I AIBU or not, so before our meeting tomorrow, give me some thoughts. I am truly lost.

We moved to Australia from Spain 18 months ago. Before coming here, my son spoke 4 languages but none of these was English (our previous posts were in Spain, Italy and Switzerland ). He started with 2 months of Y2, and I knew from the teacher that he didn't understand a word but was happy and trying.

January last year , he started Y3, during all the year I was told he was doing fine, improving , learning, lovely boy , bla bla . I could only listen to her words, as the school policy forbids bringing textbooks home so I had no clue about school work and achievements. Mid year report was good. Teacher was praising him.

So on my happy pink cloud until December when my son brings home all his textbooks. Big massive shock. Phrases which makes no sense, incomplete works , messy texts, illegible pages. A complete difference from what the textbooks he had in the previous years. His level has worsen, handwriting has turned a disaster when mixing the European cursive with the Australian print and even the drawings are senseless .

This January, I asked the Y4 teacher if I could have my son's textbooks home from time to time to help identify all the gaps he still had in English and help him get organized by going through his work, have him find his own mistakes, and let him tell me what he founds difficult, and so on. I am French and in France, you learn from very young to spend 10 minutes per day to re-read what has been done in class, finish whatever was left incomplete , so you consolidate what you have learned that day.

Big clash and total refusal to let me see my son’s textbooks. They tell me I can see them in the class but whenever I ask to (3 times since January) , there are excuses or meetings in the principal office, never in the class where the textbooks are. Meanwhile the teacher has changed her attitude towards my son (even if I haven’t commented on this with her) and she tells me I need to work with him, he doesn’t get the English phonics, and more and more critics. I am more than happy to help, when I requested to provide a plan, I was told it will be discussed at the next meeting.

So now I get to the point: is it a cultural clash? No access to textbooks is normal and whatever request considered an offence? My wish has nothing to do with judging the teacher, her teaching or the class. I just want to help my son because a student that struggles in Y4 will struggle in Y9 if nothing is done. I want to see what he writes, challenge him to write more articulate sentences than “they did lots of cool stuff” and understands his weaknesses such as its and it’s, force him to keep nice textbooks until (hopefully it becomes an habit) , ...

I am a nightmare mother? A true pian in the A… ? Should I back off? I am getting nowhere and only achieving an hatred .
What am I doing wrong and what should I do?
Thanks in advance

[Snowfedup]

From Northern Ireland here, aged 7 but similar from P1(aged 5) the children get several books home, a reading book (think biff/chip etc) and different work books every night eg english writing on monday returned on tuesday, Maths on tuesday returned on wednesday, spelling book which goes back and forth each day and a test book which comes home once a week for the parents to sign to show that they have seen the results and for the child to do corrections (writing out mistakes 3times at the back)

This hasnt really changed since i was in primary school. I still remember choosing the wallpaper to be used to cover books every term and now have the joy of stickybackplastic application :)

I just assumed this was the same everywhere

[AwakeCantSleep]

I find this so interesting. I'm from Germany, where all school stationery (including exercise books, which are just booklets of blank pages) are provided by the parents and are taken home everyday (except the ones being marked by the teacher). Homework is done in the same exercise books. Parents are expected to check the books, read teacher comments and react to them appropriately. Pupils are in charge of organising their workbooks, looking after them and taking them into school as needed.

I honestly struggle to understand how homework can be usefully connected to the work in class if pupils don't take their exercise books home? How do children revise and reinforce what they have learned during their school day? I'm baffled. British parents and teachers, please explain.

On the other hand, this may explain the lack of very basic work organisation skills that I see in undergraduates on a regular basis. (Most of them come to us with A*AA so their are not stupid.)

[Pippidoeswhatshewants]

The whole thing with books staying in school and pencils provided by school is pretty baffling for us Europeans.

As with the NHS, I think people don't value what they get for free and don't look after free things properly. We got grades for neat presentation and neat books, neat handwriting etc. and you only forget your exercise books at home once!

OP, is there an expat network you can tap into? It helps to vent to fellow "sufferers" and other expats will know how to deal with the unfamiliar systems. It's hard moving around with kids.

[urbanfox1337]

Can you imagine what would happen if English parents were asked to buy their children 8-10 exercise and text books. There would be riots on the street, how could the the poor afford them!!!

[AwakeCantSleep]

Oh yes, I remember sticky back plastic, for textbooks mostly, not exercise books. Always managed to get creases or bubbles in.

Exercise books are really cheap, it's not a big expense (you can get them from around 50p a piece I think). As someone said up thread, people value things more if they have to pay for them. It helps with organisation skills too.

I guess, income related benefits are set at a level to include expenses like this. Child benefit/tax allowance is far more generous in Germany than in the UK.

[Gruach]

I still have nothing useful to offer - like Snowfedup - I just assumed this was the same everywhere.

OP if you want full agency over your DC's schoolwork materials come to England and enrol him in an independent school. (Where you will pay for every single item.) Or time travel to 1970s England (or earlier) and send him to state school here. In either case the very idea of children and pupils being unable to treat printed materials with respect would be met with utter disbelief.

[kesstrel]

How do children revise and reinforce what they have learned during their school day?

They mostly don't. That would be "rote memorisation" and "would turn them off learning". The preferred method for many schools here is to spend lots of class time on fun and creative activities (because "learning should be fun"), and then cram at the last minute before national tests (Year 6 SATS and GCSEs), whilst complaining bitterly about how the nasty government is "ruining children's education" with their "incessant testing".

[TheAussieProject]

3.40 am here, I woke up far before my alarm clock because I guess my head keeps spinning even my sleep.

Very interesting point about creativity and language level acquisition being linked. Food for thoughts. I wonder also if creativity changes according to the language in which you are operating when you are a bi / tri /multi lingual. My speech, voice, tone and thoughts are different when I speak French, Italian , Spanish or whatever. So what about creativity?

We are in the Northern Beaches and in a very anglo (Australian, British, South African, Irish, Kiwi....) suburb. A very atypical suburb from a demographic point of view. My son is one of the very few learners from non-English background. So no expat-community as we had in Barcelona. And not much previous experience with European children for any teacher in the school as well.

The teacher keeps talking about the "journey" of learning, tools and skills for life, etc.... I am a little bit annoyed I have to confess, so it is good we have this 2 week break.

Thank you all for your support and the links offered. I also feel more confident about what I am ( and have always been ) doing. Filling the language gap will definitely be my priority. It is not that my son's English is bad, far from that, but it has reached its purpose for him to listen speak communicate and certainly lacks vocabulary (all the verbs for the animal sounds!). I have also packed our suitcase with aboriginal books. It is also hard to be creative about something you have poor knowledge and vocabulary.

[Gremlinsateit]

Hi OP, is this a public or private school? - as the approach would differ.

The tutor is a good idea. Personally I would continue speaking French at home so he does not lose it, and encourage English out of the house, for school and activities, and for reading books that interest him, which will help with vocabulary.

Workbooks are available in newsagents and other shops, which closely mirror the curriculum on core subjects.

I would personally not worry about the "not creative" issue in favour of increasing his vocab and confidence in written English.

[Cantchangeusernameback]

This sounds crazy. We have always had books sent home on a fairly regular basis (that's where DC does homework). I would also expect the school willingly to work with you to help your child to progress.

[TheNewStatesman]

Learning to be creative requires getting fluent with basic knowledge and skills first!

Dance and music are about as "creative" as activities can possibly get--yet any good dance or music teacher knows that if you want to create a sensitive and imaginative dancer or violinist or whatever, you must spend long periods of time intensively drilling and practicing the basic operations.

Being quick and fluent with the "boring" bits free up more of your mental energy to think about the interesting and high-level aspects of a problem.

[teacherwith2kids]

On the 'exercise books' thing - it is probably worth clarifying that in England IME there is a change between primary and secondary.

In both primary and secondary, all exercise books are provided by the school.

In primary, most exercise books remain in school all the time and key ones - English and Maths - are marked every day by the teacher outside school hours. There are a few exceptions:

• It is usual for every child to have a 'reading diary' or 'journal' or 'log' (terminology differs) that goes to and from school each day with the child's reading book, with an expectation that the child reads each night and either an adult (younger years) or the child (older years) writes in the diary to show that this has been done. IME, daily signing from an adult is the norm in lower years, weekly signing in older years.
  

• Each school will have some arrangement for written homework or other routine homework tasks such as learning number facts or spellings. This can vary from loose printed sheets, to folders, to an exercise book that travels to and fro, to an online system such as MyMaths.
  

• School practice varies as to what is set as homework over and above daily reading. Some schools set progressive but routine tasks: learning number facts, a spelling related task, practice of key calculations. Others set tasks closely tied to what the child has been learning in class that week e.g. additional examples of written multiplication if that is the week's Maths topic, specific grammar exercises. Yet others set 'project based' tasks that are more creative but more time consuming and require much more parental input - Greek temples, projects on a Tudor monarch, make a poster, etc etc.
  

• I have taught in schools which do each of those things. IME The one that makes the most difference to in-class learning (over and above daily reading, which is THE most essential one) is the progressive but routine tasks, in particular the learning of key number facts.
  

• All books are available for parents to see at Parents' Evenings, and any can be seen by any parent on request.
  

In secondary, the use of exercise books conforms much more closely to the 'European' model, except for the fact that they are provided by the school

• All books travel to and from school each day for the lessons they are needed for.
  

• Homework is done in the same subject books and is related to the most recent lessons (in fact it seems in some cases the majority of work in the exercise books is homework, with the lessons more focused on 'direct teaching', with application and practice forming the homework tasks).
  

• Work is marked less frequently than in primary, and for this the books are kept by the teacher for a time.

[teacherwith2kids]

(I should have added that I do know of some secondaries where a significant minority of students are vulnerably housed - B&Bs, hostels, overcrowded flats, HMOs - homework books may not be sent home but there are other arrangements for students to do the tasks normally set for homework within / around the school day. Other schools with fewer such students may well make individualised provision for pupils with few facilities to do homework)

[prettybird]

It's interesting how in different parts of the UK - and in different schools - there are different approaches.

We're in Scotland and at ds' primary school, they very much believed in the School - Pupil - Parent partnership/triangle. Even though they didn't believe in homework per se, it was the easiest way of making sure it happened.

So, we would get a reading book home some days, a "numbers" jotter (exercise book) other days, some Science worksheets another, or a spelling/language jotter another. That we we could get a sense of what ds was doing at school and whether he understood it/was coping with it.

Supposed to be only 15 minutes a night in the Infants School, increasing to 30 minutes in P7. (Amount varies between schools). ds' school seemed to have the balance about right as he had a good foundation when he went to secondary

[teacherwith2kids]

pretty, my DC's primary school had the most minimal of homework policies - daily reading, 1 weekly sheet of English or Maths, a year when all times tables had to be learned - but both my DCs, very different in character, did very well at the end of primary and took to secondary homework like ducks to water.

It is that curiously English educational attitude, that something is necessary or good at a particular stage and therefore must be even better if introduced earlier (phonics is taught in reception, so it is EVEN BETTER if children start phonics in nursery; written homework is necessary in secondary schools so it will be EVEN BETTER if children get homework in primary school). I don't believe this is the case - children are ready for certain things at certain stages (give or take the maturity and interests of the individual) and trying to artificially 'get children ready for' those stages by introducing things earlier than that is unnecessary and sometimes counter-productive.

[GeorgeTheThird]

You're obviously supporting your children really well, OP. Just came on to say - I'm sure you know - to a native English speaker, a French accent sounds very attractive, even glamorous. So don't worry at all about that!

[prettybird]

I agree. The amounts I mentioned were maximums - ds usually didn't get anything like that (although I'll admit that the "reading" took longer in P1 , as I knew he wasn't blending but he finally "got" reading towards the end of P2/age 6.5). It really was just to give parents a feel for what their kids are doing at school and help with consolidation at the same time.

He's doing extremely well at secondary and has a good attitude to homework and revision (starting his National 5s in less than 4 weeks ), as are his his former classmates, so doing "lots" of written homework at primary school is not an absolute prerequisite to learning good habits.

[SirChenjin]

Agree pretty. We're also in Scotland and your experience of homework and writing books going home is the same as ours. We very much work in partnership with the school and trust the teachers. My eldest is at university studying engineering and my DD is just about to sit her Highers, so I'm probably more relaxed about what's going on with DC3 who is in P4 - endless written homework in primary does not define their later achievements.

[teacherwith2kids]

"It really was just to give parents a feel for what their kids are doing at school and help with consolidation at the same time. "

Yes, exactly. There is no need for full class exercise books to travel to and fro - a minimal amount in a separate diary, jotter or sheets should be fine IF parents trust the school.

[Yakari]

I had to respond to this because I had the culture clash the other way - Anglo kid into the French system. 12 months of hell primarily due to a culture clash. So my son's "creativity" was seen as a negative!

So in addition to all the good advice here I'd suggest you focus on keeping up your DS's morale it's hard to always be 'wrong'. Work on friendships and if he's enjoying band and sports etc keeping him involved with that. Don't over do the parallel schooling - you don't want to kill the joy of learning, by him having a rough day at school followed by tutors and parents teaching him.

Building your friendships with other parents will also help you understand the norms and expectations. If you've moved before you'll know the drill here I'm sure. First 12 months is always the hardest.

In the end we moved schools to a more international environment. This may not be an option for you but it may be worth investigating. Some schools are just more use to bilingualism and more multicultural. And sometimes a school is just wrong for your family, even if they are right for others.

[prettybird]

To be fair on the OP, I don't think she is even getting that small amount home so that she can feel that she is able to support the school in what they are doing. She seems to have been getting very mixed messages: for long enough, her ds2 was doing fine and nothing to worry about and then suddenly there are problems

On the subject of cultural clashes, my db, who hates bureaucracy and "jobs worthiness" of any kind is apparently going to be moving to France soon with his 5 year old twins. He's already complained regularly about lack of flexibility and squashing of creativity at the twins' Scottish primary school.

I predict troubled waters ahead.....

[HildaFlorence]

How does the French system cope with those who don't all get things at the same pace , what about children with SpLD .Also surely not all French parents are as perfect and as involved as the OP , there must be parents who don't sign books , don't have ideal lifestyles etc .Do these children get supported or is it just acceptable for them to fall by the wayside.

[YourLeftElbow]

Hey OP, sorry that your son's school weren't ready to help you.
Did he have very little/no English when he started school? That's a pretty scary thing and may be contributing to why he's stuggling with maths... I find it difficult to understand and I've been speaking English for many years! I wonder whether starting school not understanding anything made him feel like there was no point trying?
Poor lad. Hope he sorts it out.

[TheAussieProject]

The fact is that Ds2 is quite good at math actually, he can do the 4 operations easily in column but has issues when the exercise requires him to break the exercise in blocks for mental maths.
He does some mental maths without problem when doing number pattern and he can identify if the number is going up and down by say 37 or 48 without using a pencil. .
The more I think about it the less I agree about maths.

The area where I see problems is his writing. Certainly never a good writer to start for, but the years in which you put the basis y3 and y4 he had and has the language barrier, meaning he will just write a sentence that suffice its purpose and not try to elaborate and his vocabulary is still limited. Very colloquial writing. And so messy, letters going up and down, the left margin widening more and more,

The French system is merciless for those with difficulties . In fact by the age they reach 15 one third of the students will have repeated a year at least. The system is blamed for the high number of students who quit school without any diploma. Having a child recognised and diagnosed for any DIS (lexis, calculia, praxis, ...) is a path full of despair, tears and humiliation.

Even if you are doing fine in the average, normal kind of type, your grades will always be quite low. The As my son is getting at high school? Forget about them! Perfection is an illusion and a pipe dream. You are always in competition. Your grades are evaluated according to how the class is performing as a whole.

And hours hours and hours of homework, Pages pages and pages of essays. And the art of hurting your feeling with a seemingly innocent sentence. I have mostly forgotten all the physics laws I painfully learnt, but can still hear the nagging of my physics teacher telling me " Dear Mrs Aussie, I should have given you a 1, but I took pity of that poor factory worker in India who worked far harder than you to do the ink you have so misused that I gave you a 2 in the end" . Once in y7 I had a -26 yes a minus 26 in French!!! We had to write an essay (4 pages) and even single mistake, accent or difficult hand writing was 1 point and I received a minus 26. The face of my father when he had to sign it ! I learned quickly how to fake my parents signature!!

It was the French system but not in France, so grades are on 10 and not 20.

The fact is I was a good student . And I went through uni with ease . And in my first jobs I was able to climb level quickly. The French system gave me the ability to work very hard and a big thick skin. But I was so miserable I didn't want my children to go through the same thing, hence our choice not to enrol them in the French School network in the world.

[CookieDoughKid]

I second the previous poster who mentioned Schofield and Simms books from Amazon. They are excellent. I use them for English and Comprehension and I use Mathletics (with nothing locked and all levels available). My opinion is that there isn't enough time and resources at state school here in England to focus on individual needs. I think my school does a great job in introducing topic and teaching but not much is done to reinforce and provide rigour. Therefore I supplement alot at home with my own resources like Schofield and Simms. (I'm Chinese but that shouldn't matter - it's well known our cultural expectations for really high academic standards and all my asian friends do exactly the same. We go above and beyond what school provides and we push our children more at home). Sorry if that is disagreeable with people here on mumsnet.