Clash with teacher and principal over .... textbooks. AIBU? Help meeting tomorrow!

[TheAussieProject]

I have reached an impasse with my son's teacher and principal and I honestly don't know if I AIBU or not, so before our meeting tomorrow, give me some thoughts. I am truly lost.

We moved to Australia from Spain 18 months ago. Before coming here, my son spoke 4 languages but none of these was English (our previous posts were in Spain, Italy and Switzerland ). He started with 2 months of Y2, and I knew from the teacher that he didn't understand a word but was happy and trying.

January last year , he started Y3, during all the year I was told he was doing fine, improving , learning, lovely boy , bla bla . I could only listen to her words, as the school policy forbids bringing textbooks home so I had no clue about school work and achievements. Mid year report was good. Teacher was praising him.

So on my happy pink cloud until December when my son brings home all his textbooks. Big massive shock. Phrases which makes no sense, incomplete works , messy texts, illegible pages. A complete difference from what the textbooks he had in the previous years. His level has worsen, handwriting has turned a disaster when mixing the European cursive with the Australian print and even the drawings are senseless .

This January, I asked the Y4 teacher if I could have my son's textbooks home from time to time to help identify all the gaps he still had in English and help him get organized by going through his work, have him find his own mistakes, and let him tell me what he founds difficult, and so on. I am French and in France, you learn from very young to spend 10 minutes per day to re-read what has been done in class, finish whatever was left incomplete , so you consolidate what you have learned that day.

Big clash and total refusal to let me see my son’s textbooks. They tell me I can see them in the class but whenever I ask to (3 times since January) , there are excuses or meetings in the principal office, never in the class where the textbooks are. Meanwhile the teacher has changed her attitude towards my son (even if I haven’t commented on this with her) and she tells me I need to work with him, he doesn’t get the English phonics, and more and more critics. I am more than happy to help, when I requested to provide a plan, I was told it will be discussed at the next meeting.

So now I get to the point: is it a cultural clash? No access to textbooks is normal and whatever request considered an offence? My wish has nothing to do with judging the teacher, her teaching or the class. I just want to help my son because a student that struggles in Y4 will struggle in Y9 if nothing is done. I want to see what he writes, challenge him to write more articulate sentences than “they did lots of cool stuff” and understands his weaknesses such as its and it’s, force him to keep nice textbooks until (hopefully it becomes an habit) , ...

I am a nightmare mother? A true pian in the A… ? Should I back off? I am getting nowhere and only achieving an hatred .
What am I doing wrong and what should I do?
Thanks in advance

[TheAussieProject]

I have abandoned the idea of the books. This isn't the point anymore.

But the teacher is very critical and I welcome critics in order to make a good use of them. I am just not sure how to do this. Critic coupled with advice would be nice.

Very critical especially towards his lack of creativity. That might be genetic as I am the less creative person on Earth and so would never do crafts or creative games with him. It seems it is here not considered a personality trait but an educational skill, which I agree.... to a certain extend. You can still be a very successful person even if you have zero creativity. I was. BC. Before the children and the endless country changing.

There are so many theories everything and everyone is right but not everything is right for you.

[Atenco]

You have my sympathies. I always hated homework when I was a child, but as a mother living in Dublin I remember a seven-year-old arriving from England and not knowing how to read or write. As he had never had any homework, his mother was as surprised as we were. He had to go into upper infants in Ireland

[Karoleann]

If that was my child in England, I would be getting an English tutor a couple of times a week to help him out, especially if English wasn't your first language.

Is that an option for you?

[derxa]

Karol That is a very good idea. In your position I would be raging as well OP. Your son should have had some EAL help. The teacher sounds horrible.

I'm fascinated by the French way of doing things. When does the teacher mark if the books are always at home? I'm guess that the French teachers don't have to do all this deep marking teachers in England have to do.

[Gruach]

we would not allow books to go home with parents for fear of never getting them back again!

we never sent books home either, too much risk of them not returning or returning damaged.

This is my parallel universe moment. I genuinely do not understand. What might parents and children do with text/exercise/workbooks taken home - eat them?

How on earth can any effective learning go on when there is such a disjuncture between school and home? (I'm not talking about any particular country - just anywhere.)

[spanieleyes]

We have had reading books returned with scribble in them, stained from being soaked in goodness knows what, stinking of cigarette smoke, torn, eaten by a dog, covered in mud or not returned at all! There is no way I would send exercise or text books home! If work IS sent home ( eg for long term absences, temporary exclusions etc) it is sent home as worksheets/activities rather than books

[lateforeverything]

Snap spanieleyes and one time, it wasn't just cigarette smoke that I could smell.

Shame really, a few spoil it for the many I suppose you could say.

[kesstrel]

Very critical especially towards his lack of creativity.

That is absolutely dreadful. However, I suspect not unusual. Education professors used to argue (and some probably still do) that all children were naturally creative, despite there not being any evidence to support this. That means that she probably thinks his natural creativity has been "squashed", probably by you, OP!

My older daughter (now 25) was in a primary school where everything was about creativity, and that was always the emphasis for praising children. It really, really upset me, because she was enthusiastic, eager to learn, caring, hard working, and well behaved - but none of that was worth anything beside her lack of artistic and imaginative creativity.

Perhaps he will get a better teacher next year?

[TheAussieProject]

I have found a tutor and we are starting next Monday, taking advantage of the term holidays.
Regarding the workbooks, everything belongs to the family, you buy exercise books and textbooks, and if you were to misplace one, you would just buy a new one, but it doesn't have because you take great care of all the school stuff. All exams or assessment are done on special sheets called "copie double", once they are marked they are registered in the class record and then sent home for signing, so all year round from week one, the parents know how the child is doing and performing. In the exercise books, the teacher will comment on the way things are written or verbs declined, if details are missing and correcting homeworks not with a smiley face but an honest opinion, quite often a bit harsh. So if you see a page full of red, you know the concept of long division is not understood and you can work on it, not discover it 10 months later. Children have a note diary and a teacher would write remarks such as "Little Aussie needs to take greater care of her books." The parent would need to sign it.

In France we have around 8 - 10 exercise books (1 geometry, 1 arithmetics, 1 grammar, 1 reading, 1 writing, 1 history, 1 geography, .....) , and sometimes the teacher keeps one to mark them but the next day you would have it back in your bag. Teachers spent a lot of time marking exercise book and parents spent a lot of time going through them and following instructions.

Books are expected to be kept in mint conditions and you are blamed if they aren't.
Even the content needs to be neat, otherwise you can be sure, you will have to copy the page again.

Teaching is not done in group, but to the whole class, there is no streaming or diverse abilities. Well I don't want to bore you. I just wanted to explain HOW hard it is to me to be kept in the dark, especially when things are not going great.

[TheAussieProject]

kesstrel we have three more terms to go... the School Year started the 28th of January and will end mid December... :(

[eyebrowse]

I think the creativity issue is another cultural clash. In England they are just reintroducing complex grammar into primary schools and teachers and most parents are very against it as we don't see the point. However we often get homeworks to create a model or write a story. We see that in future jobs are likely to be for people who can be creative and innovate as more and more jobs are automised.

Nevertheless your French work ethic and good self discipline will stand your ds in good stead to be able to get a lot of jobs that "British" cultural people will dismiss as too boring but are actually interesting in their own way and often have a good salary.

In England you can buy text books to help which are complementary to the school curriculum but I expect your tutor will have their own ideas

[Janecc]

My DH is French. His education was superior to mine - it was appalling in the uk in the 70's. As a pp said I wouldn't get too hung up on his language he will catch up especially as he wil have developed a specialised language area in his brain only created if exposed to languages when very very young. You are doing all the right things by getting a tutor. Even if his education is not great at school, he is satisfying his social and friendship needs and this is very important for his long term mental health and happiness, which will maximise his learning capacity. I, too, would be fuming with the teacher. If you want to complain I would be careful how I did it with the principal as the school will probably protect their own and may get defensive fast. If you get no joy, in the uk, there is a complaints procedure which the school will tell you if asked. I don't know about Australia. I would also be careful not to push him too much at this stage unless willing as the last thing you need to do is to put him off learning altogether.

[HildaFlorence]

It might be worth you posting in the Living Overseas topic , it's in the House and home section , to see of you can find any other people who have been through this transition from the continental European system to the more Anglo Saxon model and what strategies they employed .I think there are some fundamental cultural differences in the approach to education and whilst we all get to the same place in the end it is clearly difficult to transition between the two systems .

[TheAussieProject]

I am not saying the teaching / education in Sydney is bad, and I am sure the teacher is full of good intentions, but I am only lost.

I would have thought parental involvement in the child's education would be encouraged and not battled. It's almost a duty for us.

The fact is I have an older son in Y8 who is doing brilliantly and I don't see much creativity in high school to be honest. Yes, maybe you have to write your paper about a famous person in a newspaper format, but it is just a question of a couple of clicks in Word. Whereas what has made my DS1's transition easy and smooth was that he was used to handwork, precision and revising lessons every evening. Y7 was very easy for him, even with the Language barrier and curriculum differences. In did buy textbooks on oxford/ cambridge university press because the lack of books is something odd for me.

I am often on the living overseas section but it is more about them joining the French system (or German or ....) than people like me. But it is worth a try and I will certainly do. Thank you for the suggestion.

[lateforeverything]

There is also a Language/Bilingualism board. It's relatively quiet but worth a shot.

Good luck with it all.

[Ellle]

I've read your update. I'm sorry the teacher wasn't very helpful and didn't change her attitude.

I think the idea of a tutor is good, I was going to suggest using one if possible to help with his English when you mentioned that neither you or your husband were English native speakers. Also, as a previous poster said, try to concentrate on improving his oral skills first. This will help his written skills later on.

As you saw, it is the norm in the UK not to get workbooks sent home. Things vary depending on the school. At my son's school we get a homework book sent once a week, and although it is not a record of everything he has been doing that week at least I can have an idea of which are the main things he has been practising, whether he can do them easily or not, and how do the exercises compare to what the national curriculum says he should be at.

I sort of do what you mention you are planning to do with your son (the "double schooling"), but for a different reason. I want to make sure there are no gaps in his minority language. So I have checked the national curriculum to have an idea of what they are covering and always ask him what they have been doing at school.
Then we do the things you mention they do in France, and try to consolidate what he has been learning at school that week with activities, games and others at home but in the minority language. Occasionally, if I see that he is able to do it fine in the minority language but struggles in English, I switch and do that activity in English with him.

There are lots of ideas and good suggestions in this forum to help with all areas of learning, I'm sure you'll be able to find what you need to help your son.

[kesstrel]

It is actually very questionable whether it is possible to "teach" creativity. There isn't really any evidence that making models and writing stories will lead to a kind of generalised creativity that would be useful in future employment. Some psychologists argue that creativity is what is called "domain-specific"; that is, it doesn't transfer well across different domains or specialisations. Some also argue that the best creative work and creative thinking requires a thorough understanding of the basics. So writers need an understanding of grammar, whether that comes intuitively or is specifically taught.

[user789653241]

I hate "creativity". My ds doesn't seems to have it by teacher's comment. What can I do about it?(nothing!) Art works aren't bad(or rather good), since he shows lots of attention to details rather than creativity, but creative writing, really no hope there.

[TheAussieProject]

A massive thank you to all of you. Mumsnet at its best!
I am packing for our flights tomorrow but I will be back to comment in 10 days.

You have made a big difference and prevented me from going to a breaking point with DS's teacher.
Merci!!!

[kesstrel]

Irvine I think this obsession with creative writing is unfair, and probably holds some children (especially some boys) back in developing their writing skills. They should be able to write non-fiction if they prefer that.

[user789653241]

kestrel, that is so true. If he was asked to research something and make a report, he will do it with excitement.(But he will type it rather than hand writing.)
Yr1 teacher said he can write well but his story is "boring" in front of him at parents' eve. Yr2 teacher was more encouraging, he said "you can do so much better " kind of way, but again this year, comments were "boring", "too slow", "too logical" etc. I am sick of getting same kind of comment every year. IMO, he is good at other things, so he doesn't need to be a great writer.
But I can understand that teacher must have no choice but to push all the children .

[HumphreyCobblers]

To me the issue seems to be not the fact that the books don't come home, but that the books are kept a secret from the parents. I am a teacher and would always facilitate a parent who wanted to see work in class books.

The fact that the OP was assured all was well, until she saw the books and queried the levels, seems to point to a very defensive teacher. If the child is doing the standard algorithms and getting it right I fail to understand how any teacher would have a problem with that. I wouldn't be impressed with this attitude at all really.

Good luck OP, you have had lots of helpful input on this thread!

[wallywobbles]

I am English with French kids at school in france. The kids have huge backpacks. Nothing gets left at home because the kids are punished it they do. No lockers either so they are basically carting everything with them to and from school. They do it from age 3.

We have never lost or forgotten anything more than once or twice per child temporarily. We aren't particularly organized so the system works. Even if it's not to everyone's taste. They are also punished for being late to school.

We sign everything in the homework exercise books and all comms from school. Every day they write/copy their homework tasks into their diaries. Homework is class work related.

About twice a term we have to do a signing or initialing feast to see what they can and can't do.

Im more puzzled by the current UK system as I went to a progressive private primary many decades ago.

[derxa]

It's very interesting that parents in France buy the books and have to replace them.
The partnership between parents and teachers is excellent. Also the idea of 'creativity'. If English is not your first second or third language then you can't experiment with it. A creative writing homework is great for those fluent in a language- others not so good.
I should imagine French grammar terminology is clear and established. I was astonished at some of the made up terms for SPaG in English when I was teaching.

[craniumache]

Hi OP. Just skim-read the thread whilst in a very long queue at the bank.

I have a son in Y4 here in the UK and if you're looking for things you can do at home I would recommend these Schofield and Simms mental arithmetic books. My son's primary gives them for homework - it was a page a week for my eldest when he was there, but now they've started alternating it with mathletics which is more topic-focussed.

I like them because they give a lot of variety in question type rather than sticking to one topic, so they're good for practice. I usually get my son to do extra pages in the holidays. (The answer books are useful too, when they get on the higher levels!).

You would need to work out which level he needed. My son has recently moved onto book 3, but there are others in his year-group just starting book 2, and a small number in the top group on book 4.