Really fussy marking with otherwise good work

[BinkyandFlip]

I'm not sure how to manage this. Ds is in Y4 and is pretty good at school work, not struggling particularly, but his teachers seem to be picking him up on every little tiny thing in his work.

For example we did some comprehension last weekend, together, which wasn't actually comprehension - there was a paragraph about caring for dogs, but the questions were not directly from the text therefore it was more about dog-related general knowledge or common sense I suppose.

Anyway we answered the questions as best we could and he wrote the answers. First off he's being told to do full sentences instead of just answering the question, which is printed alongside anyway, but that's Ok, I understand it.
Then he is being pulled up on the use of 'because', as in '...because dogs need to eat meat...' and asked to find another word instead? As?

There is one question which asks what would happen if you forgot to feed your dog.

He didn't know what was expected and so he wrote 'It would starve to death'. This was met with 'Why?'



Neither ds nor I understands what his teacher wants him to put for this. It seems totally bonkers, very obvious, nothing to do with comprehension and really for a child who has never owned a dog, I'm not sure how he's meant to know where to get a marrow bone from, or why you need to change the water every day.

None of this is explained in the paragraph.

Can anyone help?

[BinkyandFlip]

Verbatim.

Caring for your Dog

A dog will make a trusty friend if you look after it well. Remember! (Is that a sentence? - ed) A healthy dog is a happy dog!

Your dog will rely on you to give it food and water. You will need two big dishes. Fill one dish with fresh cold water. Change the water every day. Make sure the dish is always clean and full.

A medium sized dog needs two meals a day: a small breakfast before you go to school and its main meal when you come home.

Dogs are meat-eaters (hyphen?), so a third of the main meal should be meat and two-thirds (hyphen, again?) should be broken biscuit. Mix it together and give it to your dog in the second dish. You can add vegetables and gravy from your own meals if there are any left over.

Crunching is good for your dog's teeth and gums. Give it some hard dog biscuits to crunch while you are at school. Chewing a marrow bone will help keep your dog's teeth clean.
Try to feed your dog at the same time each day.

Re-read the instructions (? there are none) and answer the following questions.

1. How many dishes will you need for your dog? (fair enough, 2)

1. Why should you give your dog meat to eat? (Ok, it's a meat-eater)

1. Where could you get a marrow bone from? (imagining you know what one is)

1. What would happen if you forgot to feed your dog? (totally hypothetical and really rather irrelevant)

1. Why should you change the water every day? (presumably dog drool contamination? bit tenuous)

1. What other items of equipment would you need for a dog? (It plainly doesn't tell you this. If you have never had a dog, you might not know. This is not comprehension as it bears no relevance to the prior text)

I hope this helps.

[BinkyandFlip]

Oh and I forgot to say, nothing positive at all, only lots of pink corrections and a '2 housepoints' at the end which is less than he normally gets.

[Snossidge]

The text is the instructions (instructions on how to care for a dog).

The questions are all fine. Even if a child doesn't know what marrow bone is and can't be bothered to look it up, they could infer that information (marrow bone is something dog's chew, where would you buy dog stuff from - maybe a pet shop? Or, butchers' sell bones - you could try there).

A hypothetical question is fine too.

[BinkyandFlip]

How is that comprehension when these things are not, IMO, inferable from the text though? I know you think they can be inferred; I am not so sure.

It's basically asking him to guess. They may as well have told him to read a passage from the bible and then asked the same questions about dogs.

[BinkyandFlip]

Snossidge I have to ask about those apostrophes

[mrz]

You don't need to know what a marrow bone is to answer the question and yes it is comprehension.

[BinkyandFlip]

Comprehension of what? Not of that text. Dogs chew all sorts of things. Slippers. Television remotes. You can't buy those in a pet shop.

[Snossidge]

Do you generally struggle with these kind of exercises that require inference OP? Or extrapolating from what you know, using imagination etc? I know you mentioned your DS having ASD but being able to answer questions about a text even though the answer isn't written down is something children are expected to do at school. Even a much younger child might be asked about how a book character is feeling or why they did something, even if the text doesn't say so explicitly.

[BinkyandFlip]

No, I don't normally struggle with inference. I have an English GCSE at grade A, as well as three A levels.

I understand about inferring things from the given passage, but in this instance I don't think the answers to some of the questions are particularly inferable from this passage.

If you will forgive me I have to go and sort out a recalcitrant bed-goer now, but thank you again for taking the time, everyone who replied.

[mrz]

Strategies to Develop Children's Understanding of Texts
Questioning
It is essential that pupils have the opportunity to interact and engage with texts and move beyond literal comprehension. They need to consider questions that require them to deduce, infer, justify and evaluate.

Literal questions: repeating directly, or in own words what the text says.
e.g. Can you tell me what happened when/where/who? What are the main points in this non fiction text?

Inferential questions: reading between the lines, drawing out conclusions which are based on, but go beyond, the information given in the text.
e.g. Will Robbie stay or leave and what makes you think this?

Deductive questions: drawing conclusions from the information given throughout the text.
e.g. Explain … using two or more points to justify this. Where does it imply that?

Justification: finding evidence in the text to justify responses.
e.g. What in the text makes you say that?

Evaluative questions: making critical judgements relating to the text.
e.g. Is this a successful piece of persuasive writing? What makes you think that? Does this passage succeed in creating suspense? Why/How?


Prior knowledge activation
Activation of prior knowledge can develop children's understanding by helping them see links between what they already know and new information they are encountering.
• Brainstorming around the title, chapter heading, picture on the front cover (these can be written, oral or drawn)
• Word association chain around key word in title or an image in the text
• Ask for memories around key word in title or an artefact (this reminds me of … it makes me think of)
• Filling in a mind-mapping, concept mapping or other grids/proforma (e.g. the first column of a KWL grid).

[mamadoc]

I just wouldn't get so hung up on it being described as a comprehension exercise.
None of those questions are unreasonable for a Y4 child to have a punt at answering.
It's not a whole lot of work. It seems entirely reasonable to me just as a fellow parent of same age child.
Indeed you can't get all of them from the text but it doesn't take a lot of thinking to figure out a reasonable answer or to look it up in a book or just google.

If I was trying to help DD with these (we don't have a dog) I would tell her to think about friends or family members who do have a dog. Maybe even ring them- grandma would love to help with this.
Or look it up in a book- we have various books about animals in general
Or direct her to suitable website eg RSPCA or Battersea (just what comes to mind off the top of my head)

Doing some of that stuff would make it much more enjoyable and interesting anyway than just copying some words from the text. I never understood why that was valued as an exercise at school.

[Lurkedforever1]

I really don't think the questions are based on the assumption children will already know about dogs. Rather the opposite. Dd would have done it of course, but sharing her opinion with me on how incorrect some of the 'facts' are. I really don't see that homework as a general knowledge of dogs quiz. It's a comprehension exercise.

[mamadoc]

Charis what do you think DD and her teachers would be better off doing?

Rote learning more information? Seems a bit pointless in today's digital age where you can google whatever you want to know.

I think that being able to analyse and synthesise information is going to be more important than just knowing or remembering stuff in the future. It will be about knowing how to learn more not just knowing stuff. I think that she is learning how to learn and in a much more personalised way.

My education I recall as largely the teacher delivering the lesson they prepared many moons ago and had delivered to this year group at this time since the dawn of time plus the same homework they had given since the year dot. Giving it a cursory glance and a tick. I learnt a lot of stuff but I never had any pointers on how I could improve my own work. It was a passive process.

Where I do agree is that having to show this in writing is unnecessary. The teacher could just as well have a conversation. I do see that teachers are upset about pressure to demonstrate stuff all the time for the regulator and that is fine but to say that all modern methods are rubbish is throwing the baby out with the bath water.

[mamadoc]

I also think it's amusing that you sneer at targets and analysis of targets and yet tell me it won't make any difference to her eventual grade which is the ultimate artificial target / proxy outcome measure of a 'good' education!

If you were a real educational purist surely you wouldn't care about grades either just learning for the sake of learning.

Reasons for preferring modern methods are less to do with grades and more to do with their usefulness in life in general. It seems a lot more like how we learn as adults ie from feedback.

[charis3]

I think the entire "target" artifice should be cut down and chopped up into firewood and burnt. Totally useless, completely stupid waste of time and anti educational.

[charis3]

I think that being able to analyse and synthesise information is going to be more important than just knowing or remembering stuff in the future. don't see your point; of course, but you have to know and remember stuff first, and be good at knowing and remembering.

[charis3]

If you were a real educational purist surely you wouldn't care about grades there are situations when they don't matter, and situations when they do.

There is NEVER a situation when a single target matters.

[Ricardian]

Also haven't a clue what ofsteds marking rules are

Both this blog post (from a noted antagonist of Ofsted) and the comments below make interesting reading:

teachingbattleground.wordpress.com/2015/09/18/the-ofsted-teaching-style-r-i-p-part-one/

[mrz]

schoolsweek.co.uk/ofsted-busts-myths-on-book-marking-and-lesson-plans/

[headexplodesbodyfreezes]

What would happen if you forgot to feed your dog?

Doesn't this refer to the first paragraph? If you don't feed the dog, you are not looking after it well. Therefore it will not be healthy or happy.

[mrz]

marymyatt.com/blog/2014-10-10/more-on-marking

[Autumnsky]

I agree the teacher is trying to help DC to improve their work. Maybe it is a chance to tell DS, homework marking is the important way a teacher using to help DC to improve, it is not picking on him.

I think it is important that DC can take other people's criticism.

[LaContessaDiPlump]

Skim-read the thread.

I work as a professional writer (still training) and it boils my piss when I receive feedback where the reviewer doesn't actually explain what they want me to bloody do. They ask leading questions and I can TELL that there is some specific answer they want, but I don't know what it is. I also know that however much I rack my brains and however much effort I put in, the eventual feedback will be negative. It's terribly disheartening, so I have some sympathy for you and your son op. Whenever I give feedback (to my 4 yo son or anyone else) I explain what the fuck it is I actually want them to do!!

I didn't realise I would have to content with this sort of thing in DS's schoolwork too

[user789653241]

I think this could be a great exercise for my ds who struggles with comprehension. (I will actually do it with him, since there are lots of tips.)

Text is easy to read, questions are simple. And the fact that he doesn't have pets does not stop him thinking about what the answer could be.
If he hasn't got a clue about changing water, I would ask him if he doesn't mind drinking a glass of water from day before.

I'd rather have a teacher who gives more things to think about, than give him "well done" every time, what ever he writes.

[Narp]

People are talking as if reading comprehension is a new thing. It is as old as the hills - as old as I am, as old as my mum is, at least (she is 73)