Really fussy marking with otherwise good work

[BinkyandFlip]

I'm not sure how to manage this. Ds is in Y4 and is pretty good at school work, not struggling particularly, but his teachers seem to be picking him up on every little tiny thing in his work.

For example we did some comprehension last weekend, together, which wasn't actually comprehension - there was a paragraph about caring for dogs, but the questions were not directly from the text therefore it was more about dog-related general knowledge or common sense I suppose.

Anyway we answered the questions as best we could and he wrote the answers. First off he's being told to do full sentences instead of just answering the question, which is printed alongside anyway, but that's Ok, I understand it.
Then he is being pulled up on the use of 'because', as in '...because dogs need to eat meat...' and asked to find another word instead? As?

There is one question which asks what would happen if you forgot to feed your dog.

He didn't know what was expected and so he wrote 'It would starve to death'. This was met with 'Why?'



Neither ds nor I understands what his teacher wants him to put for this. It seems totally bonkers, very obvious, nothing to do with comprehension and really for a child who has never owned a dog, I'm not sure how he's meant to know where to get a marrow bone from, or why you need to change the water every day.

None of this is explained in the paragraph.

Can anyone help?

[1woozle]

Schools all have Marking and Feedback policies - these vary from school to school, but some create a ridiculous amount of extra work for the teacher with (IMO) very little benefit for younger children (I agree that there are huge potential benefits for older children).

In some schools,if verbal feedback has been given in the lesson, the teacher has to annotate the work accordingly -why?- in the time the annotation takes, the teacher could have been feeding back to another child.

All the research shows that immediate verbal feedback is the most effective, but teachers are no longer trusted to do this and books are used to "prove" that this is happening

[ladyvimes]

Blame Ofsted. Ofsted require marking to show a dialogue between teacher and pupil, which basically means questions and comments to improve the work and then evidence that the child has acted on this. 'Good work, well done' is considered pointless feedback by itself!

[derxa]

Of course a teacher can say a child has done good work If you write 'Good Work' then you are hung drawn and quartered in my experience.

[BertrandRussell]

I would have expected previous homework marking to have said something like"try to use a wide range of connectives- not just "because" "

Are you sure the teacher didn't say something about it in class?

[pieceofpurplesky]

Op in an exam if a question is worth three marks one is for the answer, one for a quote to back it up and one for an explanation. The teacher needs to ensure that the pupil is being stretched and knows how to answer the work to gain the top marks.
We have to give targets on every piece of work.

[BertrandRussell]

And I think that "good work" is pretty meaningless, frankly.



Ds's schoo uses www ( what went well) and ebi (even better if) and they are expected to refer to the ebi for the next bit. Can't see a problem with that.

[charis3]

Ds's schoo uses www ( what went well) and ebi (even better if) and they are expected to refer to the ebi for the next bit. Can't see a problem with that.

horribly dehumanising and manipulative. How would you feel if your boss treated you like this!

[BertrandRussell]

Eh?

So you think homework should be just ticked and "wonderful"?

What if it's wrong?

[derxa]

Assessment for learning is the name for this sort of thing. Can you imagine the pointless hours spent on it? Can you imagine the problems this creates for children with poor reading and writing skills - to carry out a written dialogue with a teacher?

[cruikshank]

I agree with charis3. Obviously teachers should be ensuring that children reach their potential and that means not just blindly nodding and saying 'well done' all the time, but this incessant nit-picking for the mere sake of it, together with the insistence that a school can somehow teach a child how to write well by following a 'creative use of words' formula is bullshit.

[Snossidge]

Charis - I'm expected to do things differently based on feedback all the time are work

[cruikshank]

derxa - I recently saw a 'dialogue' in ds1's book that went 'Can you find two more words ending in -ly?' Ds1 - 'no' (! - he wasn't being rude - he really couldn't). Teacher - 'look again'. Ds1 - 'I have'. Instead of this time-consuming back and forth pantomime which benefited no-one (and yes,which I did intervene on), wouldn't it have been quicker just to ask him, find out that he was struggling and explain it, rather than relying on me to pick up on it (which not all parents would) and do what could have easily been done in class?

[cruikshank]

Although, actually, answering my own question, if the teacher had dealt with it in a two-minute conversation, it wouldn't have been recorded as a target, much less a target that was met, according to what Ofsted deems legitimate.

[titchy]

If my boss came up with what went well and even better if, I'd be pleased they were aware of my work, glad they recognised the effort I put into the what went well, and happy to take on board how I can do a particular task better.

Why on earth would anyone think their boss was an unreasonable bastard for that????? Or do we want everything dressed up as amazingly positive these days?

And IMO teenagers are the absolute experts in hearing praise for themselves; it's hearing the constructive criticism they tend to have problems with...

[museumum]

I actually think quite seriously that there are a large group of the population for whom the message that nothing is ever good enough and everything can always be better and should be better is very damaging.
It lost count of the number of young people I know with mental health issues relating to perfectionism. Of course these aren't caused by teachers comments on homework but I'm sure this kind of rule doesn't help them.

[catkind]

horribly dehumanising and manipulative. How would you feel if your boss treated you like this!
We're always doing things like this at work. At the end of a project, what went well, what could we do better next time? Annual reviews, what went well, what could be improved next year? What do I need to do to move up to the next level? I'd feel at sea without proper constructive feedback, how do you know where to focus your efforts if everything is "well done good work"?

[derxa]

'Can you find two more words ending in -ly?' Ds1 - 'no'
She asked a closed question so he was quite correct.
Even if she had said 'Find two more words ending in -ly'. He might have legitimately replied, 'OK'.

[BertrandRussell]

"derxa - I recently saw a 'dialogue' in ds1's book that went 'Can you find two more words ending in -ly?' Ds1 - 'no' (! - he wasn't being rude - he really couldn't)."
Actually- unless he's 5, I think that is really rude. And unless he has SEN, I think that's unacceptable.

[derxa]

Bertrand But this is how children respond to this sort of thing. It takes endless sessions in training them how to respond. The only purpose of it is 'evidence in books for Ofsted'. Teachers aren't observed so much now or given a rating. It's all evidence in books and data.

[BertrandRussell]

Well. That's how young children respond to that sort of thing. A NT 7 year old who responded like that would be being a smartarse.

[charis3]

If my boss came up with what went well and even better if, I'd be pleased they were aware of my work, glad they recognised the effort I put into the what went well, and happy to take on board how I can do a particular task better.

REALLY!!??

you wouldn't be hissing " you stupid arrogant patronising git" between your teeth while fantasising about punching him in the mouth? personally, I would resign.

Why on earth would anyone think their boss was an unreasonable bastard for that????? Or do we want everything dressed up as amazingly positive these days?

Nothing what so ever to do with being negative or positive, and everything to do with being straight forward, and not emotionally abusive or manipulative.

And IMO teenagers are the absolute experts in hearing praise for themselves; it's hearing the constructive criticism they tend to have problems with...

and it is my opinion that this fucking ridiculous " two stars and a wish" or " praise sandwich" or what ever you want to call it system that has caused so much insecurity, and trust issues.

[BertrandRussell]

How would you like it to be put?

[charis3]

We're always doing things like this at work. At the end of a project, what went well, what could we do better next time? Annual reviews, what went well, what could be improved next year? What do I need to do to move up to the next level? I'd feel at sea without proper constructive feedback, how do you know where to focus your efforts if everything is "well done good work"?

good, but I sincerely hope you are talking about a straight forward an honest appraisal, not the emotionally abusive and manipulative crap that school children are subjected to.

I've come across one school where the instruction is actually 7 (yes ! SEVEN!!) pieces of positive feedback for every negative piece.

Not only does the positive feedback become utterly worthless and contemptible, but any kid with any nouse quickly realises they can protect themselves from criticism by ensuring there is never 7 good things that can be said about them or their work.

[charis3]

How would you like it to be put?

how about correct answers being marked correct, incorrect answers being marked incorrect, a reasonable number of corrections given, a comment about effort if appropriate?

or would the entire education system collapse into ruins if this happened??