Really fussy marking with otherwise good work

[BinkyandFlip]

I'm not sure how to manage this. Ds is in Y4 and is pretty good at school work, not struggling particularly, but his teachers seem to be picking him up on every little tiny thing in his work.

For example we did some comprehension last weekend, together, which wasn't actually comprehension - there was a paragraph about caring for dogs, but the questions were not directly from the text therefore it was more about dog-related general knowledge or common sense I suppose.

Anyway we answered the questions as best we could and he wrote the answers. First off he's being told to do full sentences instead of just answering the question, which is printed alongside anyway, but that's Ok, I understand it.
Then he is being pulled up on the use of 'because', as in '...because dogs need to eat meat...' and asked to find another word instead? As?

There is one question which asks what would happen if you forgot to feed your dog.

He didn't know what was expected and so he wrote 'It would starve to death'. This was met with 'Why?'



Neither ds nor I understands what his teacher wants him to put for this. It seems totally bonkers, very obvious, nothing to do with comprehension and really for a child who has never owned a dog, I'm not sure how he's meant to know where to get a marrow bone from, or why you need to change the water every day.

None of this is explained in the paragraph.

Can anyone help?

[mrz]

Not in my experience derxa if the work is good I'm more than happy to say so. I'm still breathing and Ofsted were more than happy with marking in my school.

[BinkyandFlip]

The teacher needs to ensure that the pupil is being stretched and knows how to answer the work to gain the top marks.

Well that's all very well but he doesn't know how to 'answer the work'. In my opinion, and I did the sheet with him, he answered the question about forgetting to feed the dog.

What more was required? What a stupid question to begin with. What would happen if you forgot to feed the dog?

FFS!

And he answered it in a reasonable manner, albeit without using a full sentence, as I didn't know he had to and neither did he, and then got pulled up on the fact he didn't explain WHY a dog would starve to death if you did not feed it.

I mean seriously? It's at that point that I started to question whether in fact we might have a not particularly bright teacher.

He patently didn't know how to answer the questions. And they were stupid questions. He didn't know what a 'marrow bone' was either, and it wasn't explained so I had to explain it, not really knowing myself tbh.

It was just a pathetic piece of homework IMO. At least ask a child to find the answers in the text. Not 'here, read this text then answer some questions that it doesn't include the answers to'.

[BertrandRussell]

"He patently didn't know how to answer the questions. And they were stupid questions. He didn't know what a 'marrow bone' was either, and it wasn't explained so I had to explain it, not really knowing myself tbh."

Or- he could have looked it up???????

[BertrandRussell]

"how about correct answers being marked correct, incorrect answers being marked incorrect, a reasonable number of corrections given, a comment about effort if appropriate?"

How would this work for an essay?

[derxa]

It was just a pathetic piece of homework IMO It sounds like something they found at the back of a cupboard. Also did you say your DS has ASD? This sometimes means that inference skills are poor, ie reading between the lines.

[BinkyandFlip]

There's been no precedent for internet based research Bertrand. I don't think they would have sprung it on us like this. His only way of looking things up at present (he is only 8) is asking me, or maybe finding a random book about what dogs eat, which we don't have

Yes he has AS. His inference skills are not tremendous. They do not seem to notice that he has extra requirements. But even a NT kid would probably struggle to understand what was expected in this context.

It was really not explained properly at all. And yes it looks like they found it at the back of a cupboard.

[mrz]

As the mother of an ASD son I can see why the homework is appropriate.
It's asking the child to move beyond the literal and use higher order reading skills of inference and deduction. It requires the child to read between the lines and to apply general knowledge and personal understanding, something that ASD children can struggle with.

[Narp]

OP why are you helping your son with his homework? It's his homework.

[BinkyandFlip]

He is ultra compliant. He likes to be told what to do, exactly, and not to make anything up or have to be imaginative. That holds the prospect of potential failure to get it right, which upsets and scares him.

I don't think it is particularly to do with his propensity for concise work though. I just fail to see what she expected him to write, and why she didn't make it clearer what was expected. ie why a perfectly reasonable answer was not good enough.

[mrz]

For his answer "It will stave to death." I would write "It will starve to death if he forgets to feed it." (Why will it starve? because he hasn't fed it ...that simple).

[BinkyandFlip]

Am I not meant to help him with it? I thought I was supposed to. You know, 'Mum I am stuck can you explain this please?' 'Yes what's the problem?' kind of thing.

Not 'the answer to question 8 is 152'.

[mrz]

It's not imagination it's understanding beyond the literal. Using the information provided and using logic/knowledge to answer.

[BinkyandFlip]

Yes Mrz that came under the full sentences thing. Which is fine. I get that.

But it still wasn't enough. She actualy wrote 'Why?' after he said that.
We could have attempted a physiological explanation I suppose, or else perhaps ponderedthe possibility that the dog would ransack the house, then attack a passing child in order to meet its carnivorous requirements but I thought 'it would starve to death' was appropriate, if a little direct.

[charis3]

"how about correct answers being marked correct, incorrect answers being marked incorrect, a reasonable number of corrections given, a comment about effort if appropriate?"

How would this work for an essay?

We're not talking about an essay

[BinkyandFlip]

x posts, sorry

[mrz]

Or he could say If he forgot to feed it the dog would starve to death as living things need food to survive.
The teacher is simply checking he understands.

[Snossidge]

OP, it sounds like you also see things in a very literal, black and white way too and want the answers to be clearly right or wrong. The point here is that although "It will starve" is perfectly correct, the teacher is encouraging your DS to think more deeply and give a fuller answer - the teacher is giving feedback on how the answer could be better not marking it incorrect.

[Snossidge]

Did the teacher write anything positive OP?

The questions just aren't going to state exactly how it should be answered to be a perfect answer, so I would try to prepare your DS for this if he finds the lack of exact instructions difficult.

Similarly, I wouldn't expect a teacher to need to write "look up or ask about any words you don't know" because that is just a given, especially by Year 4.

[mrz]

There isn't a single "correct" answer it's about being able to justify what you write.

If your son was stuck on the answer you could try asking him what would happen if you forgot to feed him. He'd probably say he'd be hungry which is a perfectly good answer for the dog too.

[catkind]

Op, even in reception comprehension was about more than regurgitating things from the text. Things have moved on since I was at school. It sounds like the teacher is trying to move your son towards giving longer and fuller answers. I'd guess the things she's saying aren't specific extras that were required, but examples of how he could have filled out his answers a bit.

[Narp]

That's not the scenario you outlined in your OP -

Sounded like you sat (sit?) down to do it together

[BinkyandFlip]

Yes a perfectly good answer Mrz which is also what his answer of 'it would starve to death' was. And it was his answer. I just confirmed that that was probably good enough.

I still don't see why it wasn't.

The teacher is simply checking he understands. Well I think most kids in Y4 would understand that a dog you don't feed would die eventually - because living things need to eat.

The fact he wrote that it would starve to death suggests he has a vague grasp of this.

[BinkyandFlip]

Narp, I don't understand what you are getting at.

We were in the same room and I wasn't doing much else, so I was on hand and he normally checks his answers with me as he does it, and I OK'd them. Hewas stuck on one or two and asked me what a marrow bone was, which I told him (part of the learning process?) and he wrote that you could get it from a pet shop.

Then he read this one out to me and we both laughed as it seemed like an obvious question. He wasn't sure if he was missing something. I read through the text at that point and realised it wasn't contained in that, so I said yes I think that's what it says, and he just said his answer and wrote it down (in fact I think he had already written it when he came to me).

Did I do something wrong there? With all the pressure to read with him four times a week, which I fail to do, I thought any input I made into his home learning would be construed a good thing.

[Narp]

I'd be really surprised if your DS doesn't do reading comprehension at school and therefore should be used to it (he may have forgotten when you sat down with him; for example to write in full sentences)

Different questions will require different levels of understanding. Some will require the child to find and reproduce information direct from the text; some will ask the child to infer from the text (that's what you refer to in your OP as 'general knowledge').

The teacher is simply prompting to give fuller answers. Children often don't understand that what is obviously a complete answer to them is not a complete answer to the reader.

I'm guessing that your son's ASD may make that more of a challenge for him, but it's not an issue unique to children with ASD.


Just because you deem a question too easy for your son does not mean the teacher is 'not bright' - there will be some children in your child's class who might not be able to answer that question, believe it or not.

[Narp]

OK, so I got the wrong impression from the phrases you used in your OP -''we did some comprehension together'

'we answered the questions as best we could'