4+, 5+, 7+ madness 2015 - who's going to join me?

[4pluspsycho]

Following on from the 2014 thread, I've decided to name change and start a new one for 2015: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/primary/a1905744-3-4-5-7-support-thread-2014

My dd will be sitting assessments for 3 schools in the coming months. I've tried to 'tutor' her myself, but in reality it's a half hearted attempt (from both of us!)

I'm hypocritical in the sense I'd really like her to go to 2 of the 3 schools; but do feel guilty trying to 'prepare' her, when I can see she's not at all interested in pencil control, shapes etc.

I'm going to give it our best shot through relaxed, play based learning and then see what happens on the day.

Anyone else or am I the only one?

[tess73]

then again maybe if the numbers applying are huge then they do truly select the brightest of the applicants. who knows. we didn't take the place anyway, it was just a back up incase of state entry disaster.

[Greenfizzywater]

i honestly think they are just trying to screen out noisy boisterous kids who can't sit still. surely.

spot on
the tasks they get them to do are fairly widely known and tutored for by the feeder nurseries.
but to be fair, what are the schools to do with 10 applicants per place? go back to the system where you have to ring from the labour ward to be guaranteed a place?

[runmammarun]

for south hampstead my daughter had a role play of shops. they wanted to see if she could follow instructions eg fetch me 5 strawberries. they also did colouring and had a story. the group was asked if anyone wanted to sing a song (she didnt!)]best of luck all of you. its a stressful time.

[worriedsick100]

Anyone's son sitting Habs 7+ and want to go to pieces together? :) Does anyone know when the second round interviews will be? Does the process go on for all on January?

[caracaralina]

Hello - no experience of the 7+ at Habs boys I'm afraid!

4pluspsycho are you still here? We are in a similar boat. Am still resisting tutoring! Our local state primaries all seem good so back up is to take up a place there if we don't get a place where we apply and instead retry at 7+ or 11+

I was sooo not going to be stressed by this all but I am already... sigh.

[4pluspsycho]

Hi Cara,

Yes, I am still here. Was going to check back on this thread this evening, so very timely.

I am tutoring dd now. I thought, we've got one chance, let's go for it (in theory!)

The first week was difficult, tantrums about having to sit down, messing about, purposely not doing as I asked - I'm sure I'm painting a glorious pic of dd here....however, we have made some progress.......

They key for us is timing, so we now do (subject to realism) 15 mins each morning after breakfast when she's fresh and alert. Anything after lunch is not productive, she's tired and grumpy and refuses to co-operate.

Have a look back at the 2014 thread to see what tasks she'll be expected to do. I've tried to make things fun - number magnets, counting beads, brightly coloured words and shapes etc.

She can't write her name yet, but nearly there and I'll be surprised if she can't by date of assessment. Happy to admit, bribes are in full force: "No, we're not going to XX, unless you show me how clever you are and draw XXX etc."

Chocolate buttons used too for praise and everything she does; I make a HUGE fuss over, show Daddy how clever she is and stick on fridge etc.

I'm hoping I'm teaching her correctly! (just going off advice and info here really). I think we're just going to go for it and see what happens, if she doesn't get in, that's the decision made for us (and thousands saved) and I'll hope it was a 'fair' decision that she is maybe not the 'type' of girl they're looking for.

Also, very important to remember THAT is not the right school for dd if unsuccessful. I want dd to be in an environment she will thrive in and is best suited to and if N or H think it isn't a good match, then so be it.

In re: to your question on Education forum, do I think 4+ entry is possible without tutoring?

Yes, IF your child has an innate confidence, vocab and is very precocious. It would have to be unusual (but probably not impossible) for a child to be unable to do any of the 'tasks' but still get in without knowing ANY shapes, numbers, phonics, letters etc.

I'd LIKE to think N and H would take a girl that showed promise, was chatty, confident and sociable that attempted the tasks over a girl that didn't show any promise but could do every task perfectly as she had been prepped for months before. As I said, upthread, if you have an obedient child (which I don't) you can of course 'train' any child to write their name, given enough time and practice of repeating the same task over and over again.

If the latter was the case in order to pass the assessments, I can honestly say N and H wouldn't be the schools I would want my dd to spend her formative years at.

Hope this helps.

[caracaralina]

Thanks 4plus - very helpful and sounds like you are taking a wise approach.

I think your answer to my other question is right. Sort of means I think we are a bit doomed! I also would like to think that N and H would 'see past' tutoring (we are applying for one of those).

I wish I knew now what the school decision would be (where she gets in, independent and state, and where we choose), all this uncertainty is killing me.

[caracaralina]

ps I think we might be applying for one or two of the same schools - will PM you!

[WanttogotoDisney]

Sorry, Psycho, I forget to reply to your PM.

I think you underestimate what N is looking for. I do not think they are after "chatty, confident and sociable". They are after diligent self starters who pick things up very quickly and who don't have to be coaxed to sit and concentrate. It is not for the feint hearted. H is more relaxed IMO.

[PhdshehD]

Always comforting to know that there are others who are freaking out in their heads like me. I think I will see you folks in the assesment waiting rooms :) Look my kid can't read, write or recognize a single alphabet and she is boisterous. Based on this thread her chance of getting in 4+ at H or N is NIL. While she does know her numbers to 10, colors, shapes, baby animals, a few countries on the map, the solar system and the life cycles of a few creatures. However, getting her to read, write or learn phonics is like plugging a raging volcano. She hates cutting and sticking. I have very little hope of her passing almost any assesment but is that going to prevent me from applying to a few top selective schools? Hell no! What will be will be otherwise local comprehensive here we come... Let the madness begin.

[Laalaa2580]

Thanks. For SHHS do they split the girls by month of birth for the assessment?

[Greenfizzywater]

Yes, all schools do this and then choose the winter born ones

[Greenfizzywater]

Well, maybe not all, I don't know about every school in the UK, certainly all the N London day school ones do.

[Rowrowrowyourboat2014]

Hi, I have a 3 year old daughter (August born) and have assessment dates coming up soon for Radlett Prep, Manor Lodge and Edge Grove. Does anyone have any ideas what will be covered on these days? Many thanks.

[mumteacher]

4pluspsycho

I do shudder when I think of an extremely precocious 3 year old, with an all singing, all dancing 'tiger mom' smiling proudly as dd reads aloud/counts to 100/orders lunch (in French) or whatever else!


What in this would make you "shudder"?!

Isn't it what you sat your dd down to do but failed and so left to go to the park?!


If your dd sat long enough to take on instructions, write her name and colour in a pic beautifully you'd be over joyed surely thats why you attempted the task of getting her to write her name?

And had she have done what you asked would you not have been proud?!

Don't think its ridiculous for a child to be able to do something thats traditional out of the remit their age.

And more importantly don't ridicule it just because you cant get your own to do it.


Your approach is wrong thats all.

Your dd can write her name, count to whatever ....

At the park for example you could've got a twig and drawn a flower in the grass. You dd would've found a twig and copied. You then could've written your name under your flower and said 'ill write my name so everyone knows i drew it" again your dd would've copied.

Get chalk and play hop-shoch -writing numbers.

If a child isn't ready to sit at a table and learn the same learning can be achieved using many other mediums.

[mvmd968]

Hi dear mumsnetters - we are also desperately looking for a 7+ tutor around the Merton (London SW) area for assessments in the next 3 weeks (Nov '14) for our 6yo DS. Seems availability is scarce given the time of year. We've been going it alone but need more experienced tutoring to guide through verbal reasoning and algebra/geometry and perhaps do several 7+ mock exams with our DS. Aware time is tight. Any tips pls email: [email protected] - thanks ever so much!

[jinnybag]

try Laidlaw Education in Sheen. They provide tutoring and also run a group mock 7+ which might be useful.

[Laalaa2580]

Anyone had shhs4+ yet?

[KnittedJimmyChoos]

but you could just train an obedient monkey to do the tasks they require, no? If you sat with your child (presuming they follow instructions!) and did pencil control, writing names, shapes, every day for say 6 months/a year, then of course they would be able to do it if they practiced long enough

Yes I agree. Now my DD is in year 2 I am noticing those with natural ability shining through ahead of the ones who have been well prepped at home.
I do wonder what the point is, if child isnt going into selective etc, all that time they could have been playing, why the need to do all this so early if no natural apitude is there to do it early?

[ohtobeanonymous]

Mum teacher, I think the shuddering is pretty much to do with the 'tiger mum' and that it would be an extremely rare child who would be quite so very precocious due to their own natural ability and aptitude.

It is the fact that the vast majority of very young children who do such things ahead of the usual age have been pushed and actively 'tutored' to do so which is abhorrent upsets some people.

I work in an oversubscribed and extremely competitive independent school and am delighted to confirm that assessment at this age is more to do with school readiness than a full and absolutely accurate intellectual evaluation and assessment. We have had children successfully apply at 7+ and 11+ who 'failed' to get in to the school at 4+ but (as they are children, not machines) they have developed at later stages. Conversely, some children who 'shine' at 4+ look decidedly average as their classmates catch up and in many cases 'overtake' them academically.

My heartfelt message to parents is to let your children enjoy their childhood, let them lead the discovery of their world and be there to support them and share in their joy - tune in to their particular interests and attitudes as they appear and encourage these, but also expose them to as many experiences, social situations and opportunities as possible. For many, the technical aspects of reading, writing and maths will come 'naturally' and a few will be doing this sort of thing before they start school or even nursery. For most, they will learn perfectly well once they get to school - there are so many more interesting and fascinating things about the world to discover when you are a pre-schooler! So many physical and emotional skills to learn, and SO many different types of intelligences to nurture rather than the narrow range of what adults define as skills that make someone 'smart'.

[SOMSOM]

Hi everyone, My DD is also sitting assessments for reception 2015 entry and it's nice to have a support group here. It's gonna be a nervous christmas with the build up to these assesments...

[SOMSOM]

Mumteacher, I've read your posts on the previous threads and they have been quite helpful. Do you have any information on SAHS assessment.. any tips you can pass on to assist preparation for 2015 entry?

[tara2012]

Any guidance on 3+ assessment for St. Helens Northwood.

[fluffymouse]

Our has done the 4+ at shhs. She came out saying she didn't want to dance, and was facinated at the concept of a school where boys weren't allowed.

[Laalaa2580]

Do you know when shhs are getting back to everyone?