Holiday - Exceptional Circumstances

[StarlightMcKenzie]

Okay, I know this has been done to death, but dd is about to start school next week and this topic is really stressing me out, especially given we have just had the wonderful 6 week holiday and my children have developed so much I feel they are an essential part of their childhood.

DS has ASD, and is in a special school, who are flexible to his needs and would grant any term-time holiday on the basis of his sensory issues and need for places to be less busy, with more space, less queuing and quieter etc. We've done some camping and selected sites carefully but this won't be an option until next summer.

DD is starting a mainstream primary and unless they agree to termtime holidays we won't be able to go away, or even simply visit museums etc. as a family. In fact, because ds will be at home in DD's holidays, she will never get the opportunity to go places that children from typical families get to go to.

How likely is it that the HT will authorise absences? She stated in the open evening that she NEVER authorises absences for family holidays.

What do you think she 'would' authorise an absence for that would enable us to spend time as a family on fun things and also educational things?

[StarlightMcKenzie]

I saw some FFT data, but it wasn't differentiated. It made no allowances for what was happening in those 17 days.

Also, on what basis are the claims that an extra GCSE grade is more important than other childhood experiences/family time?

The schools that allows flexi-schooling are rarer than hens teeth btw.

[morethanpotatoprints]

My dd has been H.ed for a year now, she is playing with her friend upstairs atm and I have looked at her work book to compare what they are both doing.
I have found them both to be pretty similar despite dd not working specifically within the N.C.
This girl is pretty bright, my dd sort of average. There wasn't any difference at all. Considering my dd only does aprox 1 hours school work per day sometimes only 2 days a week I find it hard to understand how a child could miss any work if absent for a full year, let alone a couple of weeks.

[teacherwith2kids]

Morethan,

Having HEed, and had children in school, and then become a teacher, I would say that time comparisons between school and HE are misleading.

In HE, you can do exactly what your DD needs to do next, she can read etc outside that 'contact time', during that contact time she has 1:1 help available that is precisely what she needs.

The issue with missing school is much more about 'missing building blocks'. If a child has missed e.g. a lesson on fractions, then they won't be able to get that lesson tomorrow when they are back. the class has moved on, and that little building block is missing (I mean, of course we as teachers do our best to plug the gap - I do lunchtimes, breaktimes, spoecial bits of the lesson etc, with great willingness if the child has been ill and with slightly gritted teeth when they have been on holiday, especially if it is at the expense of other children in the class getting e.g. the tie I would have spent with them to extend their learning - but it's not a replacement for the carefully-structured lesson as originally delivered).

Next time the class does fractions, that knowledge is assumed, and the next building block put on top of it ... for most of the children ...

Enough of thoose missing building blocks and the whole edifice begins to look a little crumbly. If HEing or similar, then there isn't the same problem - the class doesn't 'move on' in th same way and the child can just pick up exactly where they left off.

[Listentomum]

"it is often the better off families that claim they cannot afford to take holidays during the school holidays"

Yes I suspect that is because less well off families usually can't afford to take holidays full stop.

[HappyMummyOfOne]

I think its unlikely to be authorised too. Weddings and funerals are the only things being authorised at our school as you cant change the date of either. Days out and holidays can be done anytime and are luxuries so not seen as "exceptional".

[shebird]

I hope you manage to sort something out OP. I totally object to this heavy handed interference in family life which is stressing parents out and forcing them to lie. I am not in favour of those who take kids out of school in term time to go skiing etc. just to save money. However I think schools need to consider that not everything can fit in around the school calendar. If a child has good attendance and are not doing exams then the absense should be granted if it is a reasonable request. I thought this government was supposed to be less interfering.

[RubyRR]

Usually inset days are specific to the school in my experience,I go through the holiday list and work out when we can go to places which would usually be busy, are no insets listed for DDs school? Your example of pumpkin picking, is it a local place? Could you try ringing and asking when is a quiet time, if you explain they may let yo go earlier/later than the usual opening hours. How many days off were you thinking?

[teatimesthree]

I haven't read the whole thread, but I see most posters are saying their HT wouldn't authorise.

I strongly suspect our HT would. Perhaps it depends on the kind of school? Ours is an inner-city school in which children are often out for term-time holidays, extended visits to South East Asia etc. Obviously this is not ideal, but the school has to deal with it (and got a stunning Osted recently). In a situation like this, where the school have to be flexible about holidays, a HT might well be more open-minded.

So my advice would be to arrange to meet the HT - you might be surprised.

[Ihaveranoutofsteam]

We are not going to ask the HT, we will just inform her we are taking dd out of school for 3 days for a holiday. She cannot authorise it so I don't want to put her in position to refuse. Most of the other children are going to an adventure camp that week, and dd is one of few not going. We will pay fine.

[afussyphase]

I'd be amazed if fractions were only covered that once and if you missed it, you just never saw it again. In my school days, every single concept like that was hammered home again and again, reviewed at the start of every unit where it came up, covered with examples, with building blocks, with cakes, with dividing up the kids in the room, you name it.
I'd like to see this supposed research too. It's such a hard thing to measure- - the long-term effects of missing just a few school days. You'd have to control for all kinds of things. You'd have to measure over long time periods. You'd never know that the few missed days were the issue. You'd need an enormous cohort study, comparing students similar in as many ways as possible, only differing in whether they missed 5 school days a year for a family holiday. And you'd have to look at students whose families were denied chances, and compare them to ones who got those chances, to go away together, bond, travel, visit family overseas, cement cultural connections, and so on. To do it right, you'd have to take into account what the students were doing; the impacts on families who couldn't go away ever and take into account the real and perceived losses. I just don't think it's been done.
These rules are affecting families, and I don't think we have the evidence to support the claims made in favour of them. I think it's time these rules change.

[teacherwith2kids]

afussy,

Of course fractions are covered again and again - but the curriculum is a spiral (imagine a spring, with each coil sitting on top of the next one, gradually spiralling up), not a circle. It doesn't cover EXACTLY the same ground again.

It matters less with some things - addition, subtraction etc are done repeatedly through the year. But some things - timetables, some types of graph, certain shape concepts, co-ordinates - really do come up rarely and so if you miss that day, you are left with a hole.

Ad that is disregarding the effect on the rest of the class of teacher time being needed to 'catch a child up' who has missed previous lessons - if every child has 5 days off during the school year, and those 5 days are not the same 5 days, every day the teacher is working to 'back fill' gaps for one or more children when they could be moving everyone forward faster.

I have anecdotal evidence of similar children from a group where school attendance is not an embedded cultural norm. All started at similar (usually low, due to very limited pre-school experiences) levels. For some families, attendance was very good. Others had a pattern of absence very similar to that which the OP proposes - a series of irregular single days, for family-related reasons.

The difference between the two groups was genuinely startling. At least a NC level per key stage, often more, from very similar starting points.

Of course, some of this is due to the attitude of the family towards school. But those missing days were vital, to an extent which surprised even us.

[teacherwith2kids]

(It may be, of course, that missing days are more important for some children than others - perhaps more able children will suffer less than less able.

But it seems wrong to found policy-making on that: 'You can go, you're bright, but you can't, because you find learning hard'.

Surely better to make policy to minimise the harm to everyone, rather than setting one that causes little harm to the more able / advantaged and more harm to those who start off at lower starting points and struggle against the odds anyway?

[prh47bridge]

Yes I suspect that is because less well off families usually can't afford to take holidays full stop.

So if the less well off families can't afford to take holidays and the better off families can't afford to take them during school holidays, how on earth are the holiday companies surviving?

The research showed that the less well off families (and many of the better off families) were taking their holidays during the school holidays. But it did, as I say, show that frequently those complaining that they can't afford a holiday during the school holidays are the better off families.

I saw some FFT data, but it wasn't differentiated. It made no allowances for what was happening in those 17 days.

There are many research studies around the world that suggest the reason for absence is largely irrelevant in terms of the outcome.

Also, on what basis are the claims that an extra GCSE grade is more important than other childhood experiences/family time?

I did not make such a claim nor do the researchers. I did, however, point out that you have 175 days family time a year - almost half the year. The question you have to ask yourself is whether it is really so important to get a few more days family time that it is worth damaging your child's education. Remember that GCSE grades are a good (but not perfect) predictor of life outcomes.

[afussyphase]

This thing about 175 days though -- almost NO parents have those 175 days off. So it's disingenuous to say that those should be enough family time. Lots of people have to work weekends. Lots of people have to work school holidays. And most people (especially family abroad) don't look up UK school holiday times when they plan their weddings! Funerals of course aren't planned and can't be expected to land in holidays.

I would be very, very surprised if missing 5 days of school, even each year, before age 8, to attend a wedding, travel internationally, experience another culture, go on an exchange, or whatever, damages children's education in a reliable and robust enough way, compared to the benefit they get from increased family time, that this policy is worth it. And I certainly think it should be demonstrated that there has been harm to a child's education before we take this kind of policy seriously.

And while I accept that there is anecdotal evidence of course it's disruptive and so on I would suggest that there is equal or greater anecdotal evidence the other way. There's some child out there somewhere whose parents were on the road to divorce but bonded so much at some family wedding in term time that they stayed together to the great joy and benefit of all concerned. There are people like me, who learned more reading maps, planning routes, timing how waves move, going to ancient sites on family trips than they would have in the last week of term - parties and movies and all that in school.
Personally, I'm going to be very annoyed if I find that there is any day at the start or end of a term, when I could have had a holiday, where there has not been some incredibly crucial thing taught that my child would have truly suffered from having missed. Because that is the claim that this policy makes: every such day contains such crucial things. And I just don't believe it.

And if the research is impractical, why not compare long-term outcomes in countries where they aren't so draconian about this: Canada for example. Well-reputed for having a strong education system. No crazy fines in place. What do they do? Pay teachers well; teaching is a respected profession, hard to get into, and well-paid. Finland - do they have crazy fines for this kind of thing? Has anyone done these comparisons?

[Lethologica]

This thread is highlighting exactly why the government had to do something to stop parents taking their kids out of school for holidays.

So many people claim 'exceptional' circumstances.... really ?? It's unfair to people who actually have a proper reason such as parents in the forces.

It's disruptive to the child's education and its unfair on the teachers and the other kids. Getting kids to lie and say they have been sick is wrong.

[Lethologica]

afussyphase.

I am laughing at your reference to Canadian schooling. We used to live there and the first week before and after EVERY holiday was a total waste of time as practically half the class wasn't there. I never let my kids miss class and it pissed me off no end. Why should I make the effort to arrange holidays in the school holidays when lots of others don't. It was extremely frustrating and must have affected *my^ children's education.

[prh47bridge]

And I certainly think it should be demonstrated that there has been harm to a child's education before we take this kind of policy seriously

It has. I repeat, there is plenty of research from both the UK and other countries to show that missed days damage a child's education. It is not just anecdotal evidence. All the research I have seen has come to the same conclusion. Indeed, the level of absence is another predictor of life outcomes.

Canada varies from province to province. In Manitoba, for example, you can be fined up to $500 (around £300) for unauthorised absence. In some provinces the police may come calling. Finland also has fines for unauthorised absence.

For clarity, you will not get a fine for a single unauthorised absence - if you do your LA will overturn it. Fines are intended to deal with persistent offenders. Your LA will have a policy regarding fines that schools must follow. This policy will define the level of absence that will attract a fine.

[prh47bridge]

Sorry - on rereading I realise I've missed a few words. Meant to say "In some provinces it used to be that the police may come calling".

[afussyphase]

Interesting. I grew up in Canada and remember being just terrifically bored those last weeks when there was NOTHING going on. Not to mentioned bored at the endless repetition of core concepts. I'm sure that's colouring my opinion here. And I grew up in a more libertarian part of Canada; at that time there were no fines and I'm sure police visits would be out of the question except for persistent truancy which was considered very different to the occasional holiday. When we travelled, obviously my parents discussed it with the school. While they aren't well-placed to control people's families/vacations/weddings, schools are in a good position to judge whether a particular child's education will suffer from an absence at a particular time.

prh47bridge -- could you link to any of that research? I'd be curious to see it.

Are the guidelines about how "persistent offenders" are defined, and when fines would be overturned vs enforced, clearly laid out? If not, we should also be concerned about variable enforcement. Surely that would violate the 'one rule for all' principle that is behind much of this.

[PrincessScrumpy]

I was terrified asking for holiday in term time last year - we wanted to visit my brother who lives in Canada and went over Easter but were there for 3 weeks. We couldn't go in the summer as my brother travels for work at that time of year.
Anyway, we filled in the form stating the educational value of the trip, dd1 did a scrapbook which she took to school, and it was a once in a lifetime holiday as once dtds were over 2 the cost would be too much to justify on a holiday.
Head teacher agreed to it with no issues and this is at a very strict school.
I would ask for a meeting with the ht and discuss it. Ask when would be the best time to take dc out of school and offer to take work with you for dc to complete (although they will probably say don't worry like our teacher said it sounds good to offer). You need to convince the ht that dd's work won't suffer as a result.
Just have a conversation with her before worrying yourself.

[HattyJack]

It's encouraging to know that some schools do authorise.

I fully intend to take DD out during June when she is a bit older because she is fascinated by seasons and the rotation of the planet and all that, so I'd like to take her as far north as I can for the longest day. She is also interested in birds and wildlife, and June is the best time to see sea-bird colonies - by the time it gets to school holidays a lot of the chicks have gone.

That isn't strictly 'exceptional circumstances' is suspect, but the guidance from the council says that "the impact upon the child’s learning and well-being must be central to the decision made" Given that she is ahead of most of her peers, would learn a lot from it and be really happy to go, I can't see how they can object. I guess I'll find out in a few years ....

[prh47bridge]

Take a look here for some American research. You can find plenty more from the UK and elsewhere by trying "school absence research" or similar on Google.

The guidelines are set by your LA and should be well defined. I haven't looked at the guidelines for all LAs but the ones I have seen are clear. Search for your LA's Code of Conduct for Education Penalty Notices. It will state the circumstances in which a penalty notice can be issued. It will almost certainly include a maximum number of times you can be fined in a year (the idea being that they move onto stronger enforcement measures after that), a set of circumstances in which you might get fined straight away (e.g. persistent lateness, unwarranted delayed return from an extended holiday, etc.) and a level of unauthorised absence that may trigger a fine (typically x sessions in a year or y sessions in a single term).

The Codes of Conduct I've read include the word "may" regularly, giving the school discretion to decide whether or not a fine is appropriate in the circumstances. So the school cannot impose a fine because a pupil misses a single afternoon, say, as that would be in breach of the Code of Conduct. If the pupil misses 30 sessions in a year, however, the school can impose a fine but is not compelled to do so. They may, for example, be aware of family circumstances that mean a fine is inappropriate.

[prh47bridge]

Just to add to Tiggytape's comments...

Even under the old regulations holidays should only have been authorised in "special circumstances" with "exceptional circumstances" needed for more than 10 days absence. The regulations did not define either of those terms. Under the new regulations it is still at the head teacher's discretion (whatever Leeds or other LAs might think) but time off can only be granted in "exceptional circumstances". References to 10 days have been removed. Part of the problem was that many parents were treating the 10 days as a right which was not the intention.

For clarity, Leeds issue a penalty notice after 5 days absence in a single term or in a period of 12 weeks.