Holiday - Exceptional Circumstances

[StarlightMcKenzie]

Okay, I know this has been done to death, but dd is about to start school next week and this topic is really stressing me out, especially given we have just had the wonderful 6 week holiday and my children have developed so much I feel they are an essential part of their childhood.

DS has ASD, and is in a special school, who are flexible to his needs and would grant any term-time holiday on the basis of his sensory issues and need for places to be less busy, with more space, less queuing and quieter etc. We've done some camping and selected sites carefully but this won't be an option until next summer.

DD is starting a mainstream primary and unless they agree to termtime holidays we won't be able to go away, or even simply visit museums etc. as a family. In fact, because ds will be at home in DD's holidays, she will never get the opportunity to go places that children from typical families get to go to.

How likely is it that the HT will authorise absences? She stated in the open evening that she NEVER authorises absences for family holidays.

What do you think she 'would' authorise an absence for that would enable us to spend time as a family on fun things and also educational things?

[teacherwith2kids]

It's not even 4 or 5 children being away for the SAME week that it's a problem.

Week 1: Child A is away.
Week 2: Teacher devotes extra time to catching child A up. Child B is away.
Week 3: Teacher devotes extra time to catching child B up. Child C is away...

etc etc.

Each time, the education of the 29 children who ARE in school is disrupted because some of the time that is rightfully theirs is devoted to the child who has been away.

If the child is genuinely sick (and I have just this week classed 1 five day absence for a child reported sick as unauthorised absence, because said child chatted happily about their holiday) then while the same disruption occurs, I know it is unavoidable. However, for avoidable absence such as family holidays and trips (which could in almost all cases be done in the 175 days the child is NOT in school) I resent it. I do it, because my interest is the child. But I still fume on behalf of the 29 who suffer.

[prh47bridge]

It is easy to see the law as a mess of contradictions but once you understand how the courts interpret the law it is generally pretty clear. One of the principles of legal interpretation is that a law that covers a specific set of circumstances takes precedence over less specific laws. So in this case S444 takes precedence over S9 because S444 is specifically about absence whereas S9 is a more vague, general clause that doesn't have anything specific to say about absence.

[morethanpotatoprints]

So I suppose its fair to assume that the Gov/schools would object on the compatability of the provision of efficient instruction and training.

So basically they assume that education would suffer in that case.

[HattyJack]

The Education Act 1996 Section 9 also says

"In exercising or performing all their respective powers and duties under the Education Acts, the Secretary of State and local education authorities shall have regard to the general principle that pupils are to be educated in accordance with the wishes of their parents, so far as that is compatible with the provision of efficient instruction and training and the avoidance of unreasonable public expenditure."

Essentially it's a mess of contradictions.

[prh47bridge]

HattyJack - It really depends on the school's willingness to regard the time as the child being educated off-site. Most schools won't buy it and I suspect that any school that did would get marked down by Ofsted.

Dancingdreamer - You are right that there is no law that forces you to send your child to school. You can HE if you wish. However, once your child is a registered pupil at a state school the law requires you to ensure that your child attends that school regularly (Education Act 1996 S444). An LA would therefore have no problem bringing a case against you for an unauthorised holiday regardless of how educational it was.

[StarlightMcKenzie]

You couldn't claim disability discrimination in the OP situation, because it is by proxy.

[StarlightMcKenzie]

I think there is a lot more potential of code B.

Educated off-site afaik means supervision by the school. But again, with proper partnership between parents and schools, this coukd be done virtually.

Again, a decent school virtual learning environment can ensure the child doesn't fall behind and the teacher doesn't have to do additional work making it easier for HT to agree.

Code B has lots of potential. And surely the above is a way around flexi-schooling too.

[Dancingdreamer]

I think if you are refused holiday and need this for real reasons eg disability of a child or inability to take holiday due to job, then I would object on 2 grounds: disability discrimination as the actions are discriminating against a disabled child and/or under human rights legislation as you have a right to a family life.

There is actually no law in this country that forces you to send a child to school. All you have to do is prove to the authorities that you are providing an appropriate education to your child. IMO if you went on holiday and could also show that a child would learn about geography, visit cultural sites etc and not just sit by a pool, I think it would be very difficult for an education authority to bring an effective case against you.

[Dancingdreamer]

I think if you are refused holiday and need this for real reasons eg disability of a child or inability to take holiday due to job, then I would object on 2 grounds: disability discrimination as the actions are discriminating against a disabled child and/or under human rights legislation as you have a right to a family life.

There is actually no law in this country that forces you to send a child to school. All you have to do is prove to the authorities that you are providing an appropriate education to your child. IMO if you went on holiday and could also show that a child would learn about geography, visit cultural sites etc and not just sit by a pool, I think it would be very difficult for an education authority to bring an effective case against you.

[HattyJack]

Ooh, I missed that bit prh47bridge How do you think that would work if the parents both happened to have QTS and did volunteer work within the school anyway. Just out of interest, like. Obviously.

[prh47bridge]

tricot39 - I was responding to a suggestion from another poster that schools and parents could work around the regulations by having the school employ parents as NQTs for the duration so that the holiday could be classed as a school outing. Interesting idea but it would be a fast track to special measures for the school!

[HattyJack]

I think all religious people have doubts occasionally, and Rowan Williams agrees, so it must be normal.

I heard the voice of God speaking to me last night saying very clearly in a still calm voice - a voice that was so beautiful it would make you weep - at the same time deep like the rumble of the ocean and sparkling like birdsong. Anyway, God spoke to me and said that as He is totally awesome he doesn't much need us to praise him or anything. He said secretly he finds it a bit boring and embarrassing - he doesn't like a fuss. He's actually really modest, which is pretty amazing when you consider he's God. But then God should be amazing. Anyway, he says he'd have much more time to alleviate suffering and so on if he didn't have to be at so many tedious religious events where "people sing interminable songs and burn stuff" - his actual words. He says we should all relax a bit more, spend more time with our families and more time outside appreciating some of the amazing things his 'evolution' experiment has produced. He says even He doesn't even know half the insect varieties it has produced. He suggested that about a fortnight every two years out of school would be a great way to show an appreciation of him, and in the meantime if we could all just be nice and considerate to each other and behave sensibly, we'd soon notice the world being a nicer place. He said it was because he'd have more time to "sort a few things out" rather than "hanging about in old, cold buildings"

I know this to be true, because it was revealed to me by God himself, and thus it forms the basis of my belief.

[afussyphase]

In my religion, the Wed-Friday of the weeks before half terms and the Mon-Wed of those after half terms, some days before Christmas and Easter holidays, as well as winter and summer solstice and equinox, a number of Fridays throughout the year, and selected other times are designated as exclusively to be used for reflection (including intellectual, physical and spiritual reflection) and family time.
I am concerned that some people are joining my religion only for the benefits this confers to their DC's education. I hear that this has happened to other, perhaps more well-known, religions lately ...

[HattyJack]

I think it might be useful to repeat the official DofE guidance on using Code C (authorised absence) in the register:

"Code C (authorised absence) Schools should consider each request individually taking into account the circumstances, such as: the nature of the event for which leave is sought; the frequency of the request; whether the parent gave advance notice; and the pupil’s attainment, attendance and ability to catch up on missed schooling."

[HattyJack]

It's up to individual LEA's, Lampshade

[HattyJack]

PasstheTwiglets "This won't help you with holidays but you could look into flexi-schooling to visit museums etc. You may know about it anyway but this is where your child attends school at certain times and is educated at home at other times. So you could, in theory, have one day off a week to visit museums etc."

Flexi-schooling was always hard to arrange - and until this Spetember schools were told to mark flexi-schooled kids as 'educated off-site' on flexi days, so it did not affect their attendance figures for OFSTED This has now been changed so that kids being flexi schooled have to be marked as absent when they are not in school - bad for the figures, thus bad for OFSTED, thus no school will agree to it. So although it remains a legal option, in practice it's been killed off.

Of course, if you happen to be a Pastafarian your children can have every Friday off anyway under the Religious Observance (nor counted as an absence for OFSTED) code.

As a committed Pastafarian I find it sad that these ill-thought out changes may bring many more people to the religion who are not true believers.

[ModeratelyObvious]

Tricot, you can ask for permission, which you probably won't get, then have it marked as unauthorised if you go.

Or you can call your child in sick.

Or you can miss it.

Up to your conscience really!

[tricot39]

prh maybe i misunderstood. i thought you were saying that if parents wanted to take their children out of school that the governors might in some hypothetical way have to assess the parent's ability to teach their child. as parents have the overall responsibility to start with, i thought that was back to front! perhaps i got the wrong end of the stick?

now having said that i have no intentiom of taking my.child out of school, i am faced with a dilemma. i don't think it is exceptional circumstances but relevant to this discussion nonetheless:

ds is in reception. i have some free tickets for a children's literary event on dec 20th. this is said to be the last day of term. i have no idea whether it will be a whole or half day but the event is in the morning. what should i.do? it would be a shame to miss it

[rabbitstew]

I think there always had to be special circumstances in order to justify the granting of a term time holiday - so the change relates to the difference between "special" and "exceptional" which is something for the HT to interpret at their discretion. So that's as clear as mud, then.

[rabbitstew]

But if people do keep on doing the above, they are effectively then making the choice to consciously break the rules, and once you have flouted one rule in front of your children, you've already set a bad example....

[rabbitstew]

I seriously doubt people will stop leaving a couple of days early for their summer holidays to avoid the worst of the rush, for example.... or even risking a long weekend away... they might just shorten their term time holidays... better than nothing, I suppose!