phonics experts -come and settle an argument

[sausagesandwich34]

scone it's an oldy but a goody!

pronounced to rhyme with cone or gone?

does the magic 'e' come into play?

does the magic 'e' even exist anymore?

[mrz]

masha refuses to tell us

[maizieD]

Precisely, Euphemia!

[mrz]

I think she would go with "k" "ah"

[solidfoundation]

In our house it's pronounced s'gon as we have a brilliant cook in our house and that's what happens to them!

[Mashabell]

MBP
Do you mean U ( as in cup) or U as in use?

So u don't understand the English 'open, long' and 'closed, short' vowel spelling system (which the OP asked about) either?
E.g. up, cup, under - use, unit, usual. I explained it on page 2. Here is my explanation again.

English has a unique and rather complex system for showing whether
the vowels a, i, o, u (and, to a lesser extent e) are long or short, as in:
flat, flatten ? inflate; hem, hemmed ? theme;
hid, hidden ? hide; dot, dotty ? dote; tub, tubby ? tube.

When the vowels a, e, i, o and u are followed by just one consonant (or several consonants and a vowel), they are 'closed' and are supposed to have a short sound, as in:
at, pet, pin, dot, bun
actor, tender, hinder, doctor, bunting.

If a consonant after the letters a, e, i, o and u is followed by another vowel, they are supposed to be ?open? and long, as in:
hale, halo; peter, period; fine, final; sole, solo;
tube, tubular'.

If a stressed vowel before a consonant and another vowel is to stay short, it is supposed to be followed by a doubled consonant:
attitude, petty, pinnacle, dotty, bunny.
Hence:
cut + er = cutter: cute + er = cuter.

Several thousand English words conform to this system.

Unfortunately, there are also hundreds of words which break the ?open and shut? rule in five different ways.

1. Nearly 400 words of more than one syllable break the doubling rule by
   

failing to double a consonant after a short, stressed vowel
(habit, very, city, body, study) .

1. Another 158 words have doubled consonants which are
   

unrelated to keeping a stressed vowel short
(accommodation, hello, immense, occur, hurrah).

1. Several hundred words with short vowels have a
   

misleading, surplus ?e:
have, seven, gone ? cf. save, even, bone.

1. Nearly 200 words have
   

irregular spellings for the short vowels e, i and u
(bread, pretty, touch),
sometimes combined with missing doubled consonants as well
(many, women; money).

5.The ?open? vowel method is disobeyed by
87 words for long a (made - paid; make - break),
79 for long i (while - whilst, mime - climb)
100 for long o (mole ? bowl, roll, soul)
and
the ?e-e? spelling is used in just 86 words
and different ones in 366 (eke ? seek, speak, shriek).

This leave many children confused about the 'open, long' and 'closed, short' vowel spelling system, as introduced in the 14th century and most clearly evident in the writings of Chaucer.

It is also one of the main reasons why learning to write English takes so long.

The system was wrecked by mainly 16the century printers, mostly the foreign ones who printed the first English bibles and spoke no word of English.

Also by Sam Johnson for his 1755 dictionary. He deleted doubled consonants from many words of Latin origin (e.g. cittie, pittie) although not all (horror, terror). He worshipped Latin and was contemptuous of English spelling patterns.

[Mashabell]

Typo: 16th C printers, not 16the.

[mrz]

ARGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

[Missbopeep]

Masha

I teach spelling in the main for my living. My book shelves are groaning under books about phonics and spelling, and the teaching of reading and spelling.

I haven't read all of your post- life's too short.

I think it is you who fails to understand.

A single vowel on its own says its sound- as a short vowel. So U would be as in cup.

You are entitled to pursue what is clearly a mission but as someone who is proud to be British with all our history which is reflected in our language- tricky as it may be at times, but most people manage it- I resent a foreigner coming along and saying it- our heritage- should be abandonned.

I also repeat what I said before- that I don't think your posts are remotely helpful to parents. All you are doing is emphasising the negative- not offering any help.

[Mashabell]

Houseworkpr...
I have no problems reading though just a bit slower so when i see a word i know it is correct.
Learning to read any language is easier than learning to write it.
There are also only around 2,000 common words with some tricky letters for reading, and the other letters of the words and context help with decoding those. For spelling there are at least 3,700 words for which u have to memorise their quirks (shut - sugar, champagne...).

I think if the language was to change i would probably be better at spelling but reading it would be awful, i struggle to read my daughters writing.

1. No reform would change the language, only some spellings - the ones that cause the most well-documented problems.
   

1. U are probably imagining that all words would need to be changed.
   

The worst retardants of literacy progress are the exceptions from the seven spelling patterns which occur in large numbers of words (55+) and create substantial reading difficulties as well. (The numbers in brackets show how many common words use the pattern - and how many don't.)



e: end ? head, any, said, Wednesday, friend, leisure, leopard, bury - (301 ? 67)


u: up ? front, some, couple, blood - (308 ? 68)





irregular consonant doubling:
merry ? very ? erratic
[regular ? missing ? surplus] - (381 ? 439 - 153)


surplus ?e endings [surprise ? promise - cf. tennis] - (181)





/ee/: eat ? eel, even, ceiling, field, police, people, me, key, ski, debris, quay -

(152ea ? 304 others)


Long /o/ sound


o-e: mole ? bowl, roll, soul; old, mould, boast, most, goes(171 ? 100)


-o: no ? toe, dough, sew, cocoa, pharaoh, oh, depot (106 ? 59)


Long /oo/ : food ? rude, shrewd, move, group, fruit, truth, tomb,


blue, do, shoe, through, manoeuvre (95 ? 101)



I also hate text speak.
I am not fond of it either when it goes too far, but i think that dropping clearly redundant letters is great. If 'i' is ok, why not 'u'?

[Mashabell]

Mrz: ARGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

Another of mrz's typical comments when she has nothing constructive to say. That's why I can't take her seriously.

BP's comment
I teach spelling in the main for my living.
explains why she is so keen for parents not to understand what makes learning to write English difficult.

Anyone who finds my comments unhelpful does not have to read them.

[mrz]

A single vowel on its own says its sound- as a short vowel. So U would be as in cup.

unicorn
unit
usual
unite
etc

[mrz]

At least it's short and meaningful masha unlike your lists

[Missbopeep]

Oh are you on Masha's mission too now?

Those words you quote are words.

I was taking about a single letter.

U sounds like U in CUP.

Not U in CUTE.

[OliviaMumsnet]

AHem
Don't make me link again
Peace and love

[Missbopeep]

I teach spelling in the main for my living.
explains why she is so keen for parents not to understand what makes learning to write English difficult.

This is a totally stupid comment. It's now a conspiracy is it- to stop parents helping.


But we are stuck with it because one woman is not going to wipe out centuries of heritage .

So what would you like to do, parents?

-Read list after list of words which don't conform to phonics? Then go away and cry in a corner.

-Or have some handouts I have written for parents on real ways to help your child learn spellings - such as the help I gave earlier today on another thread here. And if you are intersted, and your children are older, give them some background to how those words evolved.

Come on then- hands up parents.

[Missbopeep]

Mrz- you might like to look at your list again because several have "uni" as a prefix- meaning one. Children would do well to learn them as a list of words all prefixed with uni.

unit- a single one
unicorn- a single horn
unite- one joined

[maizieD]

I am perpetually fascinated by these naughty old words which refuse to follow the rules.

It's not often that I read marsha's cut and paste jobs, but when I do, they do make me smile..

[Feenie]

This is a totally stupid comment. It's now a conspiracy is it- to stop parents helping.

Oh yes. You are now up to Masha speed. We are in a massive conspiracy to pretend that children actually can learn to read and spell successfully, thereby denying Masha her entirely reasonable and sane spelling reform campaign.

Olivia, is 'listing' people against T and Cs?

[maizieD]

Mrz- you might like to look at your list again because several have "uni" as a prefix- meaning one. Children would do well to learn them as a list of words all prefixed with uni.

Please Mbp, don't start on mrz. Like you, she is a very experienced teacher who has probably been teaching phonics for far longer than you have (and with a rather better understanding of it, I have to say). You'll make yourself really unpopular if you come on here telling everyone what to do...

[maizieD]

Actually, I think that a 'u' all on its own can be anything you want it to be; as it isn't actually a bone fide word.

I don't really mind marsha spelling 'you' as 'u'. I just wish she's spell her name the way it sounds

[mrz]

Was it my ARGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHH! that has upset MNtowers?