School telling mom off for smacking her kid

[squareheadcut]

A parent I know has 3 kids under 5 and lives in a two bedroom small flat, she's a single mum and is going back to work from maternity leave in a few weeks - basically she's got a lot on her plate but does an amazing job under these circumstances.

To discipline the eldest (age 6) she occasionally smacks with her hand and always explains what she's done it for and hugs him after. Now I don't agree with this discipline method but that's how she was brought up.

The teachers are on her back at the school telling her that this smacking is "on her child's record" and she has been brought in for a 'meeting' with the welfare teacher about it and had 'child protection' and 'social services' words said to her in what sounds like thinly veiled blackmail.

It has made her angry and will lead to another smack for the kid when he gets home tonight for saying stuff about her at school - basically leading to a worsening of their relationship.

I just think the school are handling it wrongly, rather than supporting her and trying to change her behaviour they seem to make matters worse.

What do you guys think? How should schools handle this sort of thing? Should they be threatening with child protection or ignoring it or what? I know they're in a difficult position but surely they can do better than this? It's not against the law for smacking your child after all whether you agree with it or not....

[RooneyMara]

OP if you know this poor little boy is being systematically abused (told the devil is in him? Smacked constantly) then it's imo your moral duty to report it to SS.

HOW can you stand by and let this continue?

[JustFabulous]

I don't think the school "should be supporting the parent", at the expense of the child but I do think they should be looking out for the child.

[learnandsay]

I'm guessing I wouldn't want to live next door to a woman that I'd been responsible for getting SS to take the kids from. The woman sounds unhinged. And unhinged people do very strange things. I think SS are on to it. The OP has her own son to worry about. The reason she's making these posts is because she wants to check her own moral compass. She can't deal with a loony neighbour on her own.

[JustFabulous]

"i'm afraid i feel the school is more responsible for the child getting hit tonight than the mom."

That is in the same vein as blaming a woman when her husband belts her. Wrong on so many levels and honestly, OP, you need to change your mindset and stop hitting your kid

[RooneyMara]

No I'm sure she has her reasons Learn&say. Just makes me feel so frustrated and miserable for this little kid who probably believes he's evil.

Jesus.
It's so awful to think of.

[learnandsay]

Well, you're absolutely right to feel miserable. I don't know what's going on in this particular case. But a typical "devil in you"+hitting scenario is West African belief in Kindoki. (Those children too often end up dead.) I don't want to alarm people. I have no idea, none at all, what is actually going on here. It might not be that at all, or anything like it. But something bad is going on (regardless of what it is.) SS know about it and I'm sure it will get sorted out. In the meantime the OP needs to be bloody careful.

[RooneyMara]

Yes I'm really out of my depth here, I've no cultural knowledge, so I take on board what you're saying.

Just

OP I hope you can find it in you to see how wrong this is, and to keep doing what you are doing for the lad, if you're still taking him to school etc.

[Carla123]

Hopefully learnandsay. The problem is SS can only step in if they are given all the information. The school may only have part of the picture. Who knows how much or how little detail the boy went into when he spoke to the school. They may be completely unaware of the things squareheadcut is aware of. She really should at least share the comments she has posted here.

[learnandsay]

Social Services will get some information from the boy himself. They'll get other information from his environment and they'll have him assessed. If the "devil in you" references are commonly known cultural ones SS should have access to advisors and social workers who have dealt with these kinds of issues before. Unless the OP can move away from her neighbour I wouldn't advise her to get personally involved in the SS aspect in any way. If the neighbour is a loony (as I suspect she might be) one wouldn't want her for an enemy.

[Carla123]

That is, share with SS (perhaps anonymously), not with the friend.

[learnandsay]

Possibly, that's a decision for the OP. But if the situation is as bad as it could potentially be then the children will be removed and life with the neighbour is going to become difficult. The situation will be protracted, emotional and doubtless unpleasant. If I was the OP I'd rather not have had any part in brining that situation about. Contact with SS has already been established. From my study many miles away I can't tell how significant the devil comments are. But SS there in the woman's house are going to be able to get a better look. The issues that I was referring to upthread are well known. There have been many well documented cases in the UK. SS have established procedures for them.

[learnandsay]

If it's related to what I was talking about the advisor should know what he or she is looking for.

[radicalsubstitution]

learnandsay you are absolutely right that the 'devil inside you' statement would raise just as many (if not more) alarm bells than knowledge that an 'odd smack' had taken place.

There are many forms of abuse - and physical is only one of them.

Social services are under the spotlight (as are we all) following many missed opportunities in recent years. They are (hopefully) not going to put themselves in that situation again. The name Climbie comes up (quite rightly) in the mandatory Safeguarding training undertaken by just about everyone in education .

[thegreylady]

This thread has become increasingly disturbing and if the "cultural issues" are what I suspect then we may have a child who is dangerously at risk.I feel SS ought to be involved with this family and,far from being too zealous,the school may need to do more to ensure the safety of the little boy.

[Feenie]

it wasn't that long ago that schools were smacking and using corporal punishment, i think they should remember this before they run over to the 'safeguarding policies' which really probably aren';t worth the paper they're written on.

Such policies are a legal requirement - 'they' don't have a choice of whether to 'run over' to them or not, fgs.

[Carla123]

Op has not confirmed that the old and new threads are about the same child. If they are then of course I can see that she would not want to speak directly with the friend/neighbour about it. My earlier suggestions that she could do so were before I had found the old thread. The problem is that of course nobody wants to be involved in bringing about the removal of children. But everyone should be involved in the protection of children. As awkward or scary as it might be, we all have to step up and report any concerns, even if we think someone else is probably taking care of it. What if they aren't? Contact with SS had already been established in many tragic cases, including Victoria Climbie and Baby P. Yet a lack of communication and vital pieces of information not being shared, led to disaster. I feel SS should be given information from anyone who has it, in order to have a complete picture. It is then up to SS how to use that information. The friend does not need to know if OP tells SS anything. It could be done anonymously. We have no idea whether SS would actually remove the child. They may have other ways and means of supporting this family.

[Blu]

Op - smacking as discipline is not something i would condone, but I wouldn't necessarily call it abuse. If the school ask her abut this, she can just explain. No-one gets their children taken away from them for an open handed smack that leaves no mark.

HOWEVER smacking a child for talking factually about something that is the truth is abuse. Being angry with the child and punishing HIM for the school's intervention is abuse. If she is unhappy with the school's intervention then she should address that head on with the people she is unhappy with, and just explain the situation, and stop taking it so personally. To hit a child for saying something true, to expect a 6 year old to lie, to be afraid of tallking about things, and to take it out on them by hitting them more is very bad.

So bad that it makes me wonder about this calm smack and hug (yuk) that you feel so sure about. If a parent can be that nasty to her child I wonder if the hitting isn't worse than you make out.

And if you can't be sure, I suggest you stop being all outraged on behalf of your friend and be a true friend and get her to see that schools and ss intervene to check, to see who needs help, and that she should be looking at herself before lashing out at the school - and her small boy.

[learnandsay]

I'm not talking so much about being involved in the removal of children as having to live next door to the woman that I've helped remove children from (and that woman also being a lunatic who knows my son.)

[learnandsay]

When the children get taken away, and I think the children might well get taken away the OP is going to have to say convincingly that she had nothing to do with it. And the issue is going to keep coming up over and over again for years....

[learnandsay]

Carla, Climbie and Baby P are totally different. You need to be thinking Climbie and Kristy Bamu, (if it's Kindoki.)

[Carla123]

I see your point learnandsay. OP is in a horrible situation. Or in denial about a horrible situation.

[learnandsay]

Yes. But let's got get overly alarmed over this. We don't know if this is a Kindoki case. We don't know what kind of a case this is. I don't know how many people have been close to a woman who has had her children taken away, (I have) it's a mess. If what we are looking at is what I think it is then it's going to make what I've experienced look like a kid's tea party. If the OP has no experience of this kind of thing she's not going to want to get involved without specialist training.

On the other hand it might just be a loony lady saying odd things and hitting her child. From where I am I can't tell.

[Carla123]

To be honest I wasn't talking about Kindoki - I don't know much about it other than headlines. I'm not sure I could even assume the boy is at risk of serious physical harm. I am saying that the odd things this woman says to her son, the fact that she doesn't listen to him or talk to him, or give him breakfast, and smacks him for telling the truth are all emotional abuse. I mentioned the Baby P and Victoria Climbie cases as they involved communication failures. Both cases are used in Safeguarding training to highlight the fact that all parities with relevant information need to share it, even if SS have already established contact with the family. I can see your point that OP may need to convincingly tell her friend/neighbour she has had nothing to do with involving SS to avoid confrontation.

[learnandsay]

That's all true. But an assessment of risks has to be made in favour of the child. Secondly an assessment of risks needs to be made in favour of the witnesses.

What is the risk? Other than odd statements by the parent and hitting the child, we don't know. A team of professionals needs to visit the situation (ASAP) and find out. I don't think the OP should have any part in it.

[greenrabbits]

Can we just be clear here: nobody is responsibl"i'm afraid i feel the school is more responsible for the child getting hit tonight than the mom"

Excuse me? Let's just be clear here. The mother is responsible for the child "getting hit" because she is choosing to do so. Nobody else is "more responsible" and I do not know what planet you are on if you think otherwise.

I don't think the occasional smack is the end of the world, but I do think her reaction is all wrong here. The school have raised concerns over the methods of discipline she chooses to use and her response is to get angry with the child?

Your priorities suck, OP.e for