AIBU to want to move out of outer London because ds's nursery/reception is now over 90% kids without English as their first language?

[Noellefielding]

I'm concerned about his language development - whether it could be hampered by being among so many children who are not fluent.

I'm worried about what that will mean for him socially and also my potential for having much of a relationship with families whose cultures are miles away from my own.

I would love to stay for dd who is 8 and doing fine at school (this cultural change has happened very recently and fairly rapidly). And has a good local secondary to go to now it's been rebuilt and totally rejuvenated by good staff and high standards etc.

I love the richness of a multi cultural setting but am nervous of it being somehow detrimental to him. I also am worried about the school becoming predominantly Muslim. I have tons of respect for Islam and the kids are great but I have very liberal views and would certainly not choose a Muslim school for my child because it's not my culture and I am uneasy about some of the cultural messages that are going out from and into this community. Some messages are good, don't get me wrong, but I just wonder how I can feel at home anymore, maybe I just need to relax and accept the world is a global village now and stop wanting to run off to somewhere homegeneous (sp)
I mean NO offence to anyone. I'm genuinely interested in the experience of those who've stayed and those who've gone. I'm not interested in the opinion of hecklers, hope that's ok!

[Bonsoir]

Noellefielding - yes to educated, but when you have children in a class who speak 3 or 4 languages, language level is an issue. And the religious mix at school is very atypical also.

[Bonsoir]

I think that assessing a school for its potential for friends for you the parent is an excellent way, among others, of judging its suitability for your child, btw.

[tigerfrog]

Making friends through your children is important, shared interests and all that. Two years ago i moved abroad and my DD went to the local international school. I expected it to be a multicultural experience but in reality it was a completly monocultural experience. She was one of only three children who had English as a first language . The rest of the class all spoke Russian ( we did not go to Russia!) She was very limited socially as Russian was the language of the playground. She was limited academically, if you were a teacher of this class where would you pitch your lesson, at the level of the 21 Russian speakers or the three English! I was limited socially as well, I had gone there expecting to make lots of new friends but I was faced with having to learn Russian first, as well as the language of the host country! I survived two years we have now left and are at a different internatinal school (different country) were the school is a true multicultural society!!!

[muminthecity]

MumblingRagDoll - as nailak pointed out, Somali people are Muslims, my friends are traditional Muslims but have no problem with sleepovers. I don't think the Qur'an says anything about children sleeping over at friends' houses

[Noellefielding]

Thanks for all these responses, there is loads of food for thought, I appreciate all your experience and advice.

My experience of my older child is that my ability to be close to the parents had made the child's friendships closer and easier.

I agree about monoculture. The Islam at our school is spread among many cultures and English is the shared language.

I don't think it should be called racist to be concerned about the cultural make up of your children's school. I love my culture and I love multiculturalism. I just want my children to have a few English mates as well as international mates. Why is that racist? All the incoming communities have massive contacts with their own nationals. Is that racist? I think we should be allowed to express ill ease at our local area changing extremely quickly over a few years. I'm not saying it shouldn't change but it's still in some ways slightly alarming. And I'm a very global person, I've lived abroad as a child until I was ten, I have lived and worked for 6 months in a Muslim country and I loved it. I just don't know if I want my child to be almost without English mates. That's how it is at the moment in our nursery. There are one or two English kids. I love the richness, the diversity etc. I'm just trying to decide whether to move or not, dh is determined to go. He doesn't want our children to be part of a tiny minority. Surely we can discuss this without anyone calling me racist? I clearly don't have a problem because I would have moved out years ago if I had. It's just got to the point where I'm not sure if it's the best thing for my dc is all. Why can't these things be openly discussed? Immigration is fantastic but it does have consequences doesn't it?
I am not anti-immigration
But I would like to discuss this aspect of a huge amount of immigration on one primary school in outer London of about 500 pupils.
To change the cultural intake of a school by over 60% in about 5 years is a big change wouldn't you agree?

[Noellefielding]

Sorry, what I meant to say is that I don't think there is a Muslim 'mono culture' at our school as the communities from different countries.

[nailak]

^ but this is not the case here?

we all know it is advantaeous for kids to be bilinual, and this actually helps there lanuae skills?

and yanbu for wantin friends from your own backround.
however when i was a kid, i did not even notice that people were a different colour to me in infant school, it didnt have any impact on my friendships etc, i just played and befriended people i ot on with fullstop.

i dont quite understand the minority thin, because i cant understand why it matters, to me when i have made friendships or my kids have made friendships, i have never considered the cultural backrounds, race or reliion of the person.

infact i do not have any friends from my own ethnic/cultural oriin and i dont see this as a loss?

i understand mmost ethnic commnities have contact with their own nationals, but me and my friends are all mostly british nationals? as in born and/or bred here? so we share a common culture and experiences of upbrinin in british society and schools and university, we watched the same kids tv prorammes etc and i have a much more common culture with these people then i would have from any one born in my parent or randparents countries of birth?

so basically i would have more common interests with you then people who you percieve as bein part of my community/culture who werent born/bred in uk.

[Portofino]

And presumably I would be discounted by other parents here as "foreign" and there would be a concern that my child's mother tongue is not French? That does not seem to be the case - at least not in my ethnicnally diverse environment.

To me I see the school as a reflection of the greater community, the community my dd is growing up in. I lived in "very white" SE England as a child. My dd is growing up in Brussels, where 25% of the population are from somewhere else. Her school friends are of wide ethnic origin, turkish, north african, eastern european, japanese, indian etc etc. Some of them are new to Belgium, others were born here.

I love the educational opportunities this mix throws up. For example, they were learning about "bread" - they went to the farm, the flour mill, the local bakers, they made stuff at school. Then they all had to bring a "local" baked item to school. The range was astounding (dd took gingerbread men).

[swash]

I am sympathetic OP. DD did not get a place at our local school and goes to a school about 10 mins walk away. The difference in culture is massive - local school is leftwing and arty and draws kids from local community, while our school has a lot of kids from deprived areas all over the city. A fair few people have left - the cohort changes by about 50 percent between reception and Y6 because it is an inner-city school. Pretty much all of the new kids have just arrived in the country and speak little/no English. I am in my 40s and am the only older mum there (local area/school = loads of older mums).

I thought that we would get a place at my local school, but after three years have given up. I spend a lot of time feeling really sad about the lack of friendships available for both me and dd. She is fine at school - gets on with everyone - but doesn't have a best friend. When I see the ease of the girls in our local school I feel I have really failed to provide her with the social opportunities she needs. We see our outside friends in the holidays and there is the occasional party, but school socialising is a real gap in our lives I think.

That's the only issue. The school is Ofsted-outstanding and does well academically. DD is bright and well stretched, and she is very positive about her school. So most of the time it is fine. If I had had the money, I would have moved though. And I guess I would in your position.

[Portofino]

Playdates don't exist in my world. Not after school at least. The dcs seem to survive this. Dd comes home and plays with the neigbourhood children.

[nailak]

swash, how come you havent made friends with other mums? is it because you would only be interested in socialisin with people from your own ae roup/ ethnicity/ fluent in your lanuae/ class roup? or have you tried makin friends with people that are a little different from you?

it may be that you are apprehensive of befriendin different people, and the different people are apprehensive of befriendin you?

have you tried joinin pta/overnors etc? do you see the same parents from school around at park etc? maybe if you havent already you should just say hello and say next time im comin to park you should come to so our kids can play toether and see what happens?

[ThursdayNext]

Noellefielding, no one on this thread has suggested you shouldn't discuss this or accused you of being racist. You seem very defensive.

'I just don't know if I want my child to be almost without English mates'. But the children your son would go to school with are going to grow up in Britain. They will be Asian British, not Asian, Turkish British, not Turkish. They will speak English with a London accent, not a foreign one, they will eat pizza and watch Dr Who and play football. What do you think your child will be missing out on by not having many friends who are from English backgrounds? What aspects of 'English culture' do you think the children will not share?
I don't think your child will be part of a tiny minority, I see it as a bunch of children who are part British and part something else and a few who are just British.

'My experience of my older child is that my ability to be close to the parents had made the child's friendships closer and easier'. This has not been my experience. DS seems to be well able to make good friends with children at school without needing me to in any way orchestrate or organise those friendships. So far he has chosen some really nice children who have quite similar interests to him but have very different backgrounds.

[swash]

I talk to everyone - no problem. In fact I am probably the only mum who does. I also do the PTA - again no problem apart from the fact that I have limited time to help. I would say I have one friend there (mother of a boy sadly) and many acquaintances. But the friendships are not the same as ones I have made outside school with women who roughly share my values/interests. Those friendships are easy and enjoyable - getting together is easy and enjoyable.

With the school mums, it isn't easy for various reasons. Language/culture is one (Both DH and I have lived in other countries for several years but it is hard to make friends with a 20-something from a wildly different culture who doesn't work or speak much), different values, massive age gaps, different work ethic. I go to the park sometimes and it is easy to chat - but it just isn't that satisfying for me. It's not real friendship.

We all live a fair way away from each other, so playdates are a hassle. I have had kids here - two were hideously behaved, two were lovely but their parents do not do playdates! I work so I can't always be the host, plus I don't drive which makes it tricky. Also - and now you are going to flame me - DD is bright and naturally drawn to the few other bright girls in her class. She is not interested in the girls who are very young in their interests, which is a lot of the girls in her class. So the pool of friends to choose from is limited.

It's not terrible, it's just not what I would have at the other school - mates, people we see at ballet, women I knew when dd was a baby and still see around - and most importantly loads of girls that DD just gets on with brilliantly and effortlessly. Just really feel that she is missing out.

[swash]

Oh and it is a very small school so there aren't that many people to start with! And the PTA is held together by a very few stalwarts because most of the parents really don't care enough to help or are too intimidated to offer.

Just adding my bit because I know what the OP is saying about missing out, and I think it is true. Socialising is a massively important part of primary school and it is gutting not to be a true part of it. Can't stand my friends talking about their school pub quizes and camping trips and cake sales etc etc. It's just not like that in my school, and I would love it if it was!

[nailak]

sounds hard, i think in my experience some friendships that are new and with people you may not have neccessarily befriended in the past, take work to establish and maintain, but once you start them you will be pleasantly suprised at how normal the people are.

[littleducks]

OP- I dont have any close friends met at school tbh, but I wasnt really expecting to, I'm not a SAHM and normally rush off. I am more than happy that there are several mums who I chat to, could call/txt if I needed dd picked up in an emergency.

[littleducks]

And just reading swash's message....i hate the idea of camping trips/quizzes/cake sales.....maybe I am just antisocial

[drivingmisscrazy]

hester I'm particularly interested in your perspective on this - it's not an issue for us (the opposite, actually - the school DD will go to is predominantly white as well, but we don't live in the UK, but the lack of diversity - social and racial - is a problem for me), but I'm also conscious of the potential clash between my belief system and that of others - e.g. cultures where the idea of gay parents is unthinkable. I'm not sure in all conscience that I can put DD in a context, aged under 5, where she has to deal with that (and this is the reason why she will not go to a Catholic school which accounts for 95% of primary school provision) - although I recognise that these issues will have to be faced. I need her to feel that her family is not stigmatized as far as possible, and this conflicts with my general enthusiasm for genuine multi-culturalism (which was what I experienced in London in the 1970s and 1980s - not without conflicts)

[swash]

Well okay - dh would veto the camping trips because he hates camping but I would like the option! And I guess we do have cake sales of a slightly pathetic sort.

And littleducks it is the emergency mum network that is lacking, though I guess people would help if I really needed it.

nailak you are right in a way and I have been pleasantly surprised at some of the acquaintances I have made. I guess I would just like some real friends too.

Given the option I would have moved - so I get what the OP is saying.

[smallpotato]

My DD1's best friend from preschool is hungarian. They communicate fine even though the little girl only speaks hungarian at home and english at preschool. We have been to her house and she switches perfectly between the languages, it's not an issue. Her mum is loveLy too and speaks good english.

[smallpotato]

My DD1's best friend from preschool is hungarian. They communicate fine even though the little girl only speaks hungarian at home and english at preschool. We have been to her house and she switches perfectly between the languages, it's not an issue. Her mum is loveLy too and speaks good english.

[Quodlibet]

I don't have kids yet so can't talk as a parent but wanted to put in my perspective of having been one of the minority white children when I was at primary school in the early 80s.
I went to a school in outer London which was then probably about 15% white, in a predominantly asian area. I can honestly say that I loved the experience and have really fond memories of celebrating Diwali, Eid, Hannukah, Passover, Ramadan, Harvest Festival, Chinese new year as well as Christmas and easter. Small children naturally see similarity not difference and my friends were Bengali, Philipino, Pakistani - Muslim, Hindu and Sikh - in infant school. I know all schools are different but in my case the cultural mix didn't hold me back in the slightest - I even got to learn Urdu for a bit because I was interested in it in Yr 2!

I think that my early experiences have given me massive advantages in terms of cultural understanding and reference points and an ability to get on with people different from myself. When you're thinking about what how it will effect your kids, don't discount the potential positives of the experience. I'm not discounting the challenges that a school might face with a really high turnover of transient pupils, but that's a different problem to the cultural diversity issue. Why do we narrow our worlds down by assuming we can't make worthwhile friendships with people different to ourselves? It's certainly easier if you start young!

[Portofino]

Quodlibet, this is what I want for my dd! It is the world she lives in. On the downside, education in Belgium is secular. They divide them into Islamique, Catholique, Morales for 2 hours a week. I would much prefer that it was mixed.

[drivingmisscrazy]

quod your experiences echo mine also in London at a slightly earlier era - sikh, muslim, cypriot, West Indian (from various different islands), Pakistani, vietnamese, Hindu, Irish etc. Many of these kids didn't speak english at home and there was no support for them at school. Most of them spoke with the same glorious south east london twang as the rest of us and like you I only felt it to be beneficial and have been sad that my adult life has been (by accident of education and work dictating where I live) far more blandly monocultural. The kid who stood out most at my school had moved from the Isle of Lewis and had been in a tiny school - no-one could understand anything he said, poor lad!