First visit to new school friend's house, and it was filthy...

[KimOrAggie]

I've name changed to post this. DD will be starting school in Sept. Didn't get any of our choices and so she will be going to a school which has a pretty crap reputation. After visits and talking to lovely teachers, feeling reassured about teaching and the school itself, but still not comfortable with it.

I admit this is being snobby, but this is mainly because it's on an estate and the families there are not from the same sort of professional background as DD is used to with the friends she has chosen at nursery and her NCT friends (all of whom are going to different schools). Trying to keep open mind and not be judgemental. Met nice mum whose son is starting in the same class, invited us for lunch today. V kind, DD excited to be getting to know one face at least.

Still feeling distressed as HER HOUSE IS FILTHY. I'm not talking about it being cluttered or untidy (like our place) or having too much kids stuff in a small house (like ours) or a few crumbs or smears or dust (like ours). I'm talking, quite literally, the level of filth that I have never seen in real life before. I honestly did not think anyone lived like that outside a C4 documentary. It really was the before shots in 'How Clean is your house', no kidding. DD got upset about using the loo because it was clearly dirty and had 'brown water' in it. Every surface covered in stuff, and very, very deep grime, like no surface or bit of floor or kitchen appliance or basin or loo had ever been wiped down, much less scrubbed. I hated having lunch there and hated my kids being there. Kids played nicely, perfectly bright family with nice manners, but quite a psychotic level of filth.

I just had to get that off my chest. It's made me more nervous about DD starting school and I'm having difficulty separating one family's living habits from my snobbery about the school in general. Please slap wrists or reassure or suggest ways of handling this. I never want to go to that house again, but this mum seems keen on us all being good friends. Aaargh!

[rabbitstew]

I think the problem with this thread is that there is absolutely no connection between one person's filthy house and the quality of a nearby school.

I also think it's a bit sad that KimOrAggie would clearly have a hard time not running a mile from her own parents if she were to go back in time to when one was a refugee and the other living in a council house.

[bullethead]

You need to separate the two issues. The most important one is the school.

Having had experience of a school with a 'bad' reputation, I would say ignore the reputation and go with your instincts about the place. Perhaps you could assuage your doubts by asking more detailed questions - how do they teach reading- do they hear the children read regularly and change their books consistently and when necessary-do they encourage high standards of work- do you sense a 'happy' atmosphere-these things are really important, more important than who goes to the school and their backgrounds. Most children are pretty accepting of each other and the parents too, which is how it should be. If it's of any interest my children loved their school despite what others thought of it - it just felt 'right' and eveyone just gets on with it!!

Re the dirty house...it comes to the old cliche of it's all relative...my 'clean' might be your 'filthy' - good friends can get over these sorts of differences.

All the best, and remember to follow your instincts whatever you decide.

[OneMoreCupofCoffee]

I think you are confusing two issues too. The school doesn't feel right, it doesn't feel familiar and safe and you're scared - a lot of us were scared even though we were happy with the school. You may find all your fears are unfounded, you may find that you get bumped up the waiting list and get a school you initially loved.
I loved my kids school when I saw it - 3 months down the line I hated it for many reasons - it was nothing like I expected, it was middle class and conservative, the parents were lovely but the school was lazy, lacked imagination and was terrified of change...things are sometimes not as they seem.

The dirty house thing - well it's not nice is it? I have friends with poor house-keeping habits - I love them to bits but their houses make me feel slightly ill anf puts me off visiting for more than a drink.

[SarahDerbyshire]

Just wanted to put my 2 pennyw'th in...

FourEleven, at the end of the day, if you want to fit in and make friends with the other mums, then you will do - but if you're convinced from day one that you cannot possibly make friends with these people simply because they are the parents of children that go to a school that was not on your list of prefered schools - then you'll make it so that you have no friends and will be annoyed at your daughter for fitting in so well, when you, yourself, cannot.

So? Some of the families are on benefits? Does that really stop them from being nice people or from allowing you and your daughter from making firm friendships? I think not.

You may find that you don't get on with some of the mums, but please let that be because you have very differnt interests, not because you judge them by their social standing.

When I was growing up, I was best friends with the girl who's house was the untidiest. Everyone knew that her house was untidy, her house smelt and mum would have to wash my clothes as soon as I got back. Mum describes even now how one day when she had gone to collect me from my friend's house, I had been eating a satsuma and asked my friend's mum where the bin was - to which she pulled out a plastic bag from under the sofa where she was sat, put in the orange peel and then shoved it back under the sofa. These people did live in filth, but when my mum and I had some horrific teenage years (all through secondary school) - her family was the one that would let me stay every weekend and that did me no end of favours taking me places that I would never have gone otherwise. They didn't have very much in the way of money, but what they did have, they shared as much as they could and were jolly good friends to me.

As pp's have said, if you really are that off put by her house cleanliness, then invite her and her daughter to your house in future - or go somewhere to meet such as the park - there are ways around it - but don't let your misconceptions get in the way of you having friends.

HTH, and sorry for the waffle, it's the waffling hour ;)

Sarah x

[colditz]

sarah, I had a smilar situation. my mother's house was 'relatively' clean and tidy (because it was massive and she turned a whole room over to be the junk room, and then locked it )

My best friend's house was not.

But it was her and her parents I turned to again and again when my teenaged years were shit - and again and again they helped me. Despite having no money (they were working poor in the days before CTC) and my dad being relatively loaded, they made my life NICER becuase they were better parents.

And quel surprise, their children are happy now, with nice lives and much pride in their (messy!) homes, whereas all three of my parent's children have suffered with anxiety, depression and general unhappiness.

[mumoverseas]

Cleanliness and class/wealth are not linked.

DC1 goes to one of the best private schools in the area (which I struggle to afford), we have a nice house on a nice 'estate' and I am dirty . Not really filthy dirty but not the cleanest/tidiest of people. Half my problem is too much clutter and I have boxes of my mum and dad's stuff piled up in two rooms since their death which I've been trying to (avoiding) sort out.

I have now realised I must sort this out as I don't want to embarras my DC so am working my way through it all this week.

Please don't judge on appearances. I'm quite nice really, just a bit unorganised and don't seem to have enough hours in the day.

OP, I hope your DD enjoys her new school

[KimOrAggie]

I think I expressed myself badly in the original thread. This has given me lots of food for thought, despite my defensiveness. I have been feeling so anxious about my daughter starting school somewhere that wasn't one of our choices. I am doing my best to be positive about it, am joining the PTA and am always extremely open and friendly to all the mums and teachers when I've met them at the settling in sessions and parents meetings so far. It's just first time school mum nerves - of course I want to make friends as much as I want her to, and my first experience of a playdate with a new school friend was a real shock to me and I confused the two issues. It was an unfortunate juxtaposition - of course the state of her house had nothing to do with a) what a lovely, warm person she is or b) where she happens to live.
I don't think I'm better than anyone else - it's just that so far in my life I happen to have spent more time with people with the same sort of white collar work/family set up as me. That's the way it goes. School will be a new experience for all of us, and I will take it as it comes and try to let go of my worry and preconceptions.
DH reminded me last night that my best friend at school lived in a filthy house, and I was really surprised, because I hadn't noticed as a kid at all!
So thanks for all taking the time to comment. Except the poster who said I would clearly run a mile from my own parents as they grew up in a council house and a refugee camp. That was a very silly thing to say.

[rabbitstew]

I'm sorry to be rude, but surely you cannot fail to notice the spectacular irony of someone whose mother grew up on a council estate and whose father was a refugee worrying about a school, because (I quote): "I admit this is being snobby, but this is mainly because it's on an estate and the families there are not from the same sort of professional background as DD is used to ". Your own mother and possibly father are not from the sort of professional background your DD is used to, by the sounds of things, so why are you so worried about her mixing with more of the same? Have your own parents not shown you that people of all backgrounds can have the same aspirations as you? Or do you not feel that you have much in common with your own parents? Yes, I can understand your worries, because it is not the school you expected your dd to end up at, and may turn out to be wrong for her, but the sense of total panic in your initial post and the connection of two entirely unrelated issues is really quite peculiar.

[fsmail]

I agree that more money is spent in deprived areas. My friend who is a teacher has first-hand experience of this. The posher, the area, the less each school child receives per head but then often the PAs in these areas will raise more money and the schools funds are higher. Also generally the posher the house, the less clean it is unless they employ an army of cleaners, plus in a lot of cases both parents work and have less time for cleaning.

I hate cleaning (used to have a cleaner but can't afford them now) but generally always clean when somebody is coming round just out of courtesy. It is just bad manners not to clean before friends come round and is why I panic when somebody arrives unexpected.

If the child is nice and gets on with your child I would personally make excuses for her not to go back and invite her round to yours, say she is scared of the pets or something.

[tiredemma]

I went into houses as the OP described as a student nurse. 9 times out 10 the occupiers were struggling to cope or had some MH issues.

[Velamum]

KimOrAggie....don't worry about all the replies.....it obvious you just wanted to share your mad visit to your friends house...nothing more....you'd have had the same reaction if it were a new workmate/neighbour etc... Starting school can be such an overwhelming time but i've found a really laid back, take it all in your stride attitude works well.....easier said than done, i know! My eldest started at our local school, we were lucky as my sisters boys were there and my best friends 2 were there also.... our school is on the edge of an estate too so of course, the school reflected the diversity of the neighbourhood, some totally scary, shouty mums, some real la-di-da types, bible-bashers, single mums, dads, grandparents, carers prob a bit like your school (or any large collection of people!!).....i joined the PTA too, found it a really good way to get involved, what i think is that you really need to make some friends and this lady was your first attempt so obviously it freaked you out to see how she lived (regardless of income/background/living arrangments/class etc....before u all jump on me!!) Don't worry too much, it takes time to really find your feet and settle in...some people are desperate for friendship and get too close too soon which i've seen backfire on so many occasions...i'm on my 3rd child at primary now and it really does get better and easier, just relax!!! Having said all of that, i pulled my son out after 2 years because i didn't feel the discipline and teaching were up to scratch...mine go independent and the mums there are scarier and more awful than anything but thats fine, found some mums that i get on with, not doubt the others have their opinions of us but hey, thats human nature ay? Good luck with it all xxx

[piratecat]

not surprised you were shocked tbh, filth is filth, and not pleasant. NO way I'd be happy for my dd to go playing there.

Like others have said you allowing this to cloud your judgement of the school, based on this one home.

[Nimbostratus]

I'm sorry, but sounds to me that you are looking to us to justify your desire to distance yourself from this family and the school, through thinly-veiled snobbery.
You have jumped at the dirtiness of the house and tried to make your reservations more acceptable by wrapping them up in a housekeeping issue.

If you were only concerned about cleanliness, you would have left social class, reputation of school, 'professional backgrounds' etc out of the picture.

Teach your child to wash hands before eating. End of issue. The house contains a friend, who by all accounts is still living and breathing. The odd hour or two once in a while isn't going to hurt your little darling.

Bringing up your child to believe that 'background' (read: class) and how you look and present your home is more important than friendship will do a lot more damage in the long run than a bit of grime.

[Xenia]

YOu should be earning enough working dfull time to pay for a good school. You are not going to be happy with this. The private sector schools are much better for you. So I suppose the question is why do you earn so little you cannot afford to pay school fees and what led to that - bad career choice?

[TheJollyPirate]

A for Xenia.

[Elllie]

Xenia, there are people with lots of money who choose to not send their children to private.

[OneMoreCupofCoffee]

PMSL @ Xenia, are you for real?!

[NW20]

veritythebrave
"My university senior professor lecturer lives in a council house on a council estate, as does a friend who ownes a decent size entertainment management business, both most definately pay rent."

Slightly off topic but I think it is really disgusting that people such as those you mention above are allowed to live in council housing.
Both clearly earn a good income and there shouldn't be any reason why they are at least not renting privately. Council/social housing is intended for people who are in genuine need, not those who just fancy reduced living costs.

[Xenia]

I think the Government has plans in that respect given the housing shortage - eg. a couple in a 4 bed council shouse whose children have all left home might be required if those plans go through to m ove to a one bed flat to free the house for a family. That would make sense if we tink we are in a state where social housing is for those in need rather than every citizen has an entitlement to state housing which is more of a commmunist idea.

[chloemoody]

I dont think it has anything to do with "How clean your house is" I wouldnt consider taking my child to a school in the middle of a council estate and I dont care if that makes me a snob or not, I have friends who live in council homes and I myself went to a school in a area of high deprevation my mother in law also teaches at a school in the middle of a council estate so i can only judge from experience as much as I think it is judgemental and wrong to put people in a box because living in a council home doent make you less educated or less respectfull or descent than anyone else but in my area you see a lot of the children that live on the estates are left to there own devices most the time in the street all day and night no shoes and socks on swearing have not much if any dicipline at home lot of the time no good role model they pick up behavious from the parents and can be unrulely, I have no doubts that this school could give your child a good level of education but I personally would not want my dc mixing with these children picking up those behaviours and being disrupted by children that have no rules or disipline at home, my mother in law finds it hard to teach and inflict dicipline and good manners when there is none at home and finds that children from these homes DO disrupt the classroom and impact on the good kids learning....I understand just hoe judegemental and stereotypical I sound here but thats the way I feel, I moved house to get my child into a good school as I was nearer the catchment to a school like this one, primary school years are what mould children I want the best for her and this would not be it

[civil]

Our cleaners have always lived on a council estate. They have tidied our house to a much better standard than we ever have!

My dd goes to a school with a similar catchment and she is one of the best behaved children I know! (Of course I am biased! So, she hasn't picked up any bad behaviour from school).

Xenia - I would prefer to spend the time with our children than earn more money to waste on private education. I think that I can say this, having been attended Cambridge University after a selection of good and bad state schools.