Desperate for help with bedtime for 12 year old

[Mousybrown]

My 12 year old son is causing us all to be at absolute breaking point.... He is omission in the day but come bed time he starts to be difficult. He has a very long routine whereby he goes to the toilet for ages, has to adjust the blind, straighten bed, turn fan on and off and basically faf about as much as possible then he will start saying 'what can I do if I can't sleep' which he will repeat over and over regardless of the answer o give. I have told him he can read or watch to and I have bought him colouring books to try but he won't do any of these thing. He won't even put his head on the pillow, he will just keep saying what can I do if I can't sleep over and over and this can go in for 1 1/2 hours whist I get more and more fed up. I have tried going to bed earlier and later, treating him, banning him from all electronics, begging and pleading. He has had a blood test that came back normal. I have even started thjing him to a clinical psychologist to see if we can get to the bott M of why he won't just read quietly but gets totally hysterical.( when he does eventually lie down he goes straight to sleep so it's not insomnia) .all my other kids end up in tears and we are begging him just to be quiet but it's like he is possessed saying the same things over and over. I'm so low about it all and actually my hair is falling out from the stress.

[Mousybrown]

I have tried those in the past but thank you, I'll maybe have another go...I've also tried some herbal things and the phenagan.... I think if maybe he would just lie down it would help but it's like he's got an ear worm that says no no no..... I feel like I'm being negative to everyone's suggestions and I'm sorry for that! I'm really not and I'm very greatly for suggestions.. I think I'm just really tired.

[Floralnomad]

What happens if you just don't mention bed at all , just leave him doing whatever he is doing and you just do what you do then go to bed if necessary still leaving him to his own devices .

[educatingarti]

Mousy, don't feel bad, it sounds like a very hard place to be. As well as just a list of things to do, do try the type of "it's OK" and "Its not OK" statements I have described on the list. They can work wonders, especially if youngsters are on autistic spectrum.

[differentnameforthis]

How long has it been going on?
Did something trigger it?

My friends dd has recently been dx as autistic, and it all came about because of anxiety over & lack of sleep. She is a similar age. Anxiety can absolutely go hand in hand with asd.

[differentnameforthis]

I am a real do'er and a fixer so this is particularly frustrating to me that I seem to be doing everything to help him and he won't try! It's also worth remembering that this will be feeding his anxiety too.

[Mousybrown]

I do know I need to be sympathetic and we are not all the same differentneforthis but and I have all the patience in the world at 10pm but when it's midnight I just get fed up and worn down, we have to get up for work and I have a younger one who often come in my bed about 5 so it leaves me feeling desperate, then I end up shouting and he will go to sleep but I know it's not helping his ancient to lose my temper and I do try not to but it's so hard when someone is just repeating the same thing over and over and not accepting any offer given.
It's been on and off for about 3/4 years and was made worse by him and his identical twin sharing a room so we had an extension which ment they could have seperate rooms and we have now moved so they both have larger rooms too. It's been on and off with large periods where he goes to sleep fine ( it's been over 8 months since the last episode and this is by far the worst)
Clothing seems to trigger it although he did say this time he was worried about not getting up in time for school but there is no school now and he is still doing it ( I did but him and alarm clock... Silent so no ticking and no light) but it didn't make any different.
When he wasn't doing this he was getting up at 5.30 dressed and ready and eating breakfast when I got up at 6am

In the occasions I have not mentioned bed it has got to about 11 and he will say I'm tired shall I go to bed and then He does the whole routine anyway even though he is tired. He actually rubbed his eye so much it gave him a black eye with like little broken blood vessels.

[iknowimcoming]

I don't want to bombard you with more stuff but my Ds suffered with anxiety out of nowhere at 12. You absolutely need to tackle this during the day with him rather than at the time when he's kicking off. Try and take some time with him alone to talk about why he thinks it happens what he wants to do to stop it and make a plan with him of what will happen at bedtime and write it down together, tell him you're worried and it's making you sad to see him like this and it's making everyone worried and sad. Even though it's really hard try at all costs not to get angry. If its anxiety what he needs is reassurance that it's normal. Try not to focus on fixing the issue, focus on it not being an issue iyswim. Talk to him about what would happen if he can't sleep, he'll just stay awake laying in his bed, comfortably resting, he might be tired next day but nothing terrible will happen if he doesn't sleep. Help him to think of ways to help himself solve the problem rather than imposing rules to stop it happening. The important thing is to try and break the cycle, it may take a few days and don't be afraid to tweak the plan every day through discussion with him. Try and have a review each morning about how the previous night went, what helped what didn't any ideas for tonight etc and really overly praise anything that was even a slight improvement. I Don't know the ages of your other dc, but could you try keeping them up later downstairs with a movie or similar so that they aren't involved or if your dh is serious about staying somewhere else get him to take other dc with him too. Good luck op, it's really hard going and I do feel for you

[Floralnomad]

So when he goes up to bed and starts the fuss have you just said to him to go and do what he wants until he can go to bed without disturbing everybody else .

[antiqueroadhoe]

then I end up shouting and he will go to sleep

Maybe he's unwittingly desperate for you to get tough earlier on. When you order him to go to sleep he complies. Could you order him earlier in the evening without the shouting but with a low very firm voice?

Perhaps there has been too much "wiggle room" and the volume of choices and options has been feeding into his worry and compounding the problem.

What you're hoping is for him to say "hey, do you know what, X is a really good idea! Nice one, mum! I'll just go to bed now and see you in the morning. Sweet dreams, all".

It's just not going to happen.

Perhaps if it is black and white he may respond better? Some kids really crave strict boundaries and part of their bad behaviour is trying to teach you that that's what they want and need.

I had a 12 year old on a trip having a full on tantrum at 11pm refusing to go to bed. We were hundreds of miles away from home. Tried everything - chatting, calming down, special breathing techniques, hot drink, cool drink, books.... In the end after about an hour of this I just thought I was not going to be up all night with one child when I had 60 to look after the next day. I got up, ordered him to his feet and told him that everyone was going to bed now and so was he. To my surprise he got up and went to bed and that was it. He was fine. I was annoyed with myself I hadn't done it earlier and saved an hour of hysteria and endless options. I wondered if part of his behaviour was a desire to be treated more firmly - he almost seemed relieved / more relaxed to be snapped out of it.

That's one child and not yours - but perhaps a different approach earlier on?

[LippyLiz]

Would it be easier to just leave him to his own devices for a while, especially as it's summer holidays? DDs are 11 and 13 and they sit with us for a while until they want to go to bed or until we've had enough of them, lol, in which case I say 'right, get yourself off to bed,' then leave them to it. For us it took away all the pressure of the routine that we strived so hard to keep when they were younger.

[Mousybrown]

Antiqueroadho it's not really that he is refusing to go to bed it's more that he is terrified to try ifyswim he has all the routine to go through first and then the panic that he won't sleep. There are no options for him cause he won't allow himself any. He can't even look at the pile of books let alone pick one to open.
I'm going to try igoroning bedtime completely and just staying up but I have a feeling he will go through this at 10, 12 or 3 I'm the morning?
The only thing I have just thought of is that a few months ago before this started again he fainted in the toilet before bed so maybe that might have something to do with it? But there was weeks between this and that incident?

[iknowimcoming]

Mousy I wonder if anyone said at the time that he probably fainted because of being overtired or similar? It might be that he has now got it in his head that him being tired will lead to him fainting again and/or worse, so he gets stressed about the possibility of not being able to sleep as the consequences are in his mind very bad. As I said try talking to him about what he thinks could happen as a result of him not going to sleep, reassure him those things are unlikely and or easily sorted. Try to avoid saying his ideas or perceived issues are silly or daft. Assure him that you can understand how the idea has stuck in a loop but help him to work it out. Reassure him that everyone feels anxious about things that other people don't get sometimes. Try getting him to do some research on anxiety and panic attacks on the web maybe too?

[Floralnomad]

I wouldn't stay up with him ,I'd just leave him to it because you changing your routine is still making his bedtime a bit of an issue IYSWIM , at least it's the holidays so no problem really if he stays up all night - he will soon get fed up with that if everyone else goes to bed ,particularly if he then feels too tired the next day to join in with outings etc . If he comes up to bed late and starts creating just tell him firmly but calmly that he is to go downstairs / have a bath etc until he is ready to go to sleep with no fuss / without disturbing others .

[SpecialAgentFreyPie]

How are things going?

[Mousybrown]

My mil took him last night as it felt like we all needed a break. He did it there too. Repeated the same phrases over and over and did the same saying he would t be able to sleep even though he hadn't actually tried. She said this morning you have to see it to believe it ( I think she thought we were being soft and if she had him and just told him to go to bed he would)
She said there is no way you can carry on like this so its good to see that someone else thinks it's out of the realms of normal

[lucysnowe]

Hi OP so sorry this is happening with you and DS, you must be knackered :) it is good you got some respite last night, I would take any opportunity for that you can :)

I really recommend looking into ASD and sleep issues. My DD age 8 also has trouble getting to sleep (usually drops off around 11 pm or so) but without the OCD/anxiety problems, and she is being assessed for ASD. I bought the 'dread your bed' book recommended above and second the recommendation - it is a nice easy read and interactive - eg one page is a picture of a bedroom and the child has to circle what makes them anxious at bedtime.

I'm wondering if in the past he has got it in his mind he needs to sleep or he will be ill? or is there something in particular during the day he feels he needs to be 'awake' for (exams etc)? it might be worth turning it around telling him the opposite eg. 'I hear you're really good at staying awake, maybe you're nocturnal like Batman! I wonder how long you can stay awake tonight?' you can make it into a superhero special unique thing.

Social stories (an ASD thing) may also be useful - google 'social stories sleep' for some examples. Also physical things at bedtime to soothe anxiety - stuff he can bite/squeeze, maybe a weighted blanket, etc.

I do suggest giving your local CAMHS a call if you haven't already, they can be really helpful.

Finally if he really can't sleep and the anxiety is a result of that rather than the cause, you could try asking for melatonin tho most GPs don't prescribe it for children.

Good luck for tonight :)

[VikingMama]

This sounds a little similar.
Is he over tired in the day? Is he having nightmares?
My DD (ASD and anxiety) went through a similar phase, she was so over tired that any sleep she did have resulted in horrendous nightmares...and because she was so over tired in the day, she couldn't recall what was real and what was in her dreams, so was so scared to go to sleep in case the dreams were real.
She was eventually prescribed melatonin which, after a few nights, helped break the cycle...she still has vivid dreams, but she isn't so overtired that she thinks it's reality.

I would also address the anxiety issues in the day...driving in the car with him in the back is often a good way to talk without too much pressure.
He sounds like he is terrified of going to sleep but you need to know why so that you can help him.

Often, when they are in this 'stuck' phase, nothing (bribes, threats, praise, rewards) works at all. Ignoring is so hard, we've been there. it's relentless from them and if there are other kids in the house, three hours or more of ignoring doesn't help the house.

It does drag everyone down, a nice day is spoilt by bedtime, everyone is tired, everyone is snappy...believe me, when you get a solution or some help, it does get better.

[VikingMama]

Another thought...
What happens if you play musical beds...can he sleep with you for a few nights to get over some of the initial fear. 5 nights of him in with you could help break some of the cycle.

[TheEmojiFormerlyKnownAsPrince]

My DD is a bit like this. She is obsessed with getting enough sleep and goes into absolute meltdown if anything disturbs it. It's very wearing and worrying.

She has been referred to CAHMS, but meanwhile, I took het to a hypnotist which helped tremendously. It didn't eradicate everything, but it took all the heat and anxiety out of it. It was a wonderful woman, and l cannot emphasis again how much it helped.

We have a recording of the session to use again, and despite the fact that DD came out scowling and saying it hadn't done anything, she went to sleep easily sweetly and naturally and hour and a half later. For the first time in a month.

[Mousybrown]

He doesn't seem to have any kind of nightmare or worries and actually falls asleep when he does allow himself to lie down.

I had thought about a hypnotist session to perhaps calm him, even if there is some sort of placebo effect? So thanks for letting my know you found it useful!

We are actually going away tomorrow for a few days and he will be sharing a room with his dad and brother so it will be interesting to see if it helps to break the cycle he seems to have got himself into.
The GP was very unhelpful when I mentioned giving him something like melatonin and made me feel quite awful for suggesting it ( I did point out you wouldn't expect an adult to suffer like this with such stress)
But Hank's so much for all your suggestions, I can't tell you how much it has made me feel better to know other people have experience similar xx

[SaltyMyDear]

Just had a thought - Epsom bath salts contain magnesium and they can really help with sleep and a whole heap of other problems.

If he has ASD he is almost certainly deficient in magnesium. Add a cup of Epsom bath salts to his bath every night.

[Mousybrown]

Just to update with this things are no better. I havetaken him to see a clinical psychologist three times ( who was extortionately expensive) and his suggestions were a reward base system and thinking nice thoughts at bed time😡😡 Like we haven't tried those thins already!!
but he did say it 'felt' like Aspergers so I have taken him to the GP and asked fo a CAMHS referral. I won't be taking him back to the CP as I can't afford that kind of money for what was really no help at all.
My lovely friend suggested hypnotherapy which I wouldn't normally consider but needs must do I took him to see he guy on Monday and he is going back there again today.....
In my desperation last night I considered buying a lock for his door as he will simply not just 'stay' in his room and honestly everyone in the house is begging and crying for him to just go to bed but he will not!!
He says he isn't tired so I say well you can stay up and read but then he says no I want to go to bed, ok go to bed then, no I'm not tired 😱😱 we have this same conversation for an hour going round and round.......

[Mousybrown]

I hope that makes sense to someone cause it makes no sense to me: He wants to go to bed when we are but he says he isn't tired so I tell him he can stay up reading and he says no I want to go to sleep but I'm not tired.... Well what on earth do you want!! There is no other option, you can either stay up reading or go to sleep?? No I want to go to bed now but I'm no tired 😱😱 then he gets more and more and more irate screaming shouting that he needs to go to bed now but he isn't tired, what can he do to go to sleep 🙄

[FeckinCrutches]

What time does he actually go to sleep? And how does he actually do it when he does? It just sounds awful for you 😢