Desperate for help with bedtime for 12 year old

[Mousybrown]

My 12 year old son is causing us all to be at absolute breaking point.... He is omission in the day but come bed time he starts to be difficult. He has a very long routine whereby he goes to the toilet for ages, has to adjust the blind, straighten bed, turn fan on and off and basically faf about as much as possible then he will start saying 'what can I do if I can't sleep' which he will repeat over and over regardless of the answer o give. I have told him he can read or watch to and I have bought him colouring books to try but he won't do any of these thing. He won't even put his head on the pillow, he will just keep saying what can I do if I can't sleep over and over and this can go in for 1 1/2 hours whist I get more and more fed up. I have tried going to bed earlier and later, treating him, banning him from all electronics, begging and pleading. He has had a blood test that came back normal. I have even started thjing him to a clinical psychologist to see if we can get to the bott M of why he won't just read quietly but gets totally hysterical.( when he does eventually lie down he goes straight to sleep so it's not insomnia) .all my other kids end up in tears and we are begging him just to be quiet but it's like he is possessed saying the same things over and over. I'm so low about it all and actually my hair is falling out from the stress.

[JustDanceAddict]

Sounds like anxiety to me. My son also suffers although usually goes to bed ok (same age as yours), he has other anxieties that make life more difficult. He was seen by Camhs in year 5 and also had some hypnotherapy in year 6 (privately). you can start with GP if they can refer and go from there. If you can afford some private sessions than all the better. Anxiety is a real bugger - it can be managed but not totally eradicated.

[donajimena]

We had similar issues. Not as extreme but clanging and banging and the emergence of my 12 year old in my room to claim he couldn't sleep.
There were other issues to ADHD, anxiety possibly ASD we don't know yet.
CAMHS have prescribed melatonin. Its been an absolute godsend. We don't use it on weekends or school holidays but on school days. An hour before bedtime which is 10pm. He's asleep by 10
In the school holidays I say he can stay up as long as he likes (no wifi after 11) it takes away the pressure to sleep. He's asleep by midnight.

[Scootergrrrl]

I was about to say exactly the same thing as cory but not so eloquently. Can you try and get it into his head that lying down and resting is as effective as sleeping, at least in the short term? I had a child who would panic about getting to sleep but was fine when told to lie down and rest and would drop off reasonably soon. Once you start panicking about not sleeping, it's never going to happen. Have you considered melatonin too?

[lucysnowe]

I agree with cory fwiw - he's got it fixated in his head that he SHOULD sleep, if he can turn it around and focus on how cool it is to stay up, maybe that would help.

If it was me, and I am a pretty lazy parent, I would let him have screens if it soothes the transition. For DD when she moves into her own bedroom I may well get her one of those TVs on a bracket with an inbuilt DVD player, so she can watch suitable things after the watershed.

[Poocatcherchampion]

Would it be different if you put a mattress in your room?

[corythatwas]

Mousybrown Sat 30-Jul-16 12:03:45

"Antiqueroadho it's not really that he is refusing to go to bed it's more that he is terrified to try ifyswim he has all the routine to go through first and then the panic that he won't sleep. "

Does he know that it is ok to lie sleepless? That nothing dreadful will happen if he goes to bed and doesn't go to sleep for the whole night? That he can still rest just by staying quietly in bed?

The reason I ask is that I used to get terribly wound up about my sleeplessness as a young adult, until one day my mother (who had no idea I was suffering) happened to say by chance "I always do enjoy waking up at night: I lie there thinking I am so comfortable in this lovely bed, all warm and cosy and I don't have to get up for hours"- and suddenly hearing her say that just turned the whole thing on its head. Being awake at night wasn't a failure I had to fix any more: it became a privilege. And once it was not a failure I stopped worrying about it, and once I stopped worrying about it... I found myself falling asleep.

I think your emphasis on sleep, and trying to fix the sleep may unintentionally be feeding his idea that not being able to sleep is a major problem that he has to fix as soon as possible.

[MumiTravels]

There must be something more going on that he's not telling you. Something to set off his behaviours. Does he say anthing different to Dad?

[Mousybrown]

I've tried phenagan and various other sleep aids as well as fish oil tablets and magnesium sprays/ lavender/ batch rescue remedy and anything else I can find.
A lock on my door is something worth considering but I'm worried about img is brother and sister who are also upset and getting disrupted

[MumiTravels]

I wouldn't suggest a lock on his door as it may make him more mad and disruptive.

What does he enjoy in the day? What does he do all day? Is he active?

Lock your own door and settle the house down a bit earlier then if he does get up he's got an empty house to get up to.

Get some phenergan from the chemist. It's travel sickness medication but works as night sedation.

[Mousybrown]

He is currently banned from all screens, has a shower or a Epsom salts bath before bed, I have the window open all day on his room so it's fresh air in there.... That the thing mumitravels he WONT stay in there!! I have bribed/begged/ shouted/ told......that's why I was considering putting a lock on to give him a short sharp shock that it isn't exceptable to disturb everyone else.
He generally falls asleep between 11/12 so it isn't even that late and the problem isn't that he CANT sleep which is the most annoying, it's that he won't and he doesn't want me to either until he decides he's ready.....no stress in life/ bullying or anything

[MumiTravels]

No blue light before bed for at least an hour or two. Including TV and phone. Electronics stay downstairs.

A shower immediately before bed and pull back the sheets before the shower and open the window so that the bed is cold before getting in it.

If he can't fall asleep then he stays in his room and reads a magazine or book so as not to disturb everyone else.

Is he anxious about something? Worried about going back to school?

[FeckinCrutches]

What time does he actually go to sleep? And how does he actually do it when he does? It just sounds awful for you 😢

[Mousybrown]

I hope that makes sense to someone cause it makes no sense to me: He wants to go to bed when we are but he says he isn't tired so I tell him he can stay up reading and he says no I want to go to sleep but I'm not tired.... Well what on earth do you want!! There is no other option, you can either stay up reading or go to sleep?? No I want to go to bed now but I'm no tired 😱😱 then he gets more and more and more irate screaming shouting that he needs to go to bed now but he isn't tired, what can he do to go to sleep 🙄

[Mousybrown]

Just to update with this things are no better. I havetaken him to see a clinical psychologist three times ( who was extortionately expensive) and his suggestions were a reward base system and thinking nice thoughts at bed time😡😡 Like we haven't tried those thins already!!
but he did say it 'felt' like Aspergers so I have taken him to the GP and asked fo a CAMHS referral. I won't be taking him back to the CP as I can't afford that kind of money for what was really no help at all.
My lovely friend suggested hypnotherapy which I wouldn't normally consider but needs must do I took him to see he guy on Monday and he is going back there again today.....
In my desperation last night I considered buying a lock for his door as he will simply not just 'stay' in his room and honestly everyone in the house is begging and crying for him to just go to bed but he will not!!
He says he isn't tired so I say well you can stay up and read but then he says no I want to go to bed, ok go to bed then, no I'm not tired 😱😱 we have this same conversation for an hour going round and round.......

[SaltyMyDear]

Just had a thought - Epsom bath salts contain magnesium and they can really help with sleep and a whole heap of other problems.

If he has ASD he is almost certainly deficient in magnesium. Add a cup of Epsom bath salts to his bath every night.

[Mousybrown]

He doesn't seem to have any kind of nightmare or worries and actually falls asleep when he does allow himself to lie down.

I had thought about a hypnotist session to perhaps calm him, even if there is some sort of placebo effect? So thanks for letting my know you found it useful!

We are actually going away tomorrow for a few days and he will be sharing a room with his dad and brother so it will be interesting to see if it helps to break the cycle he seems to have got himself into.
The GP was very unhelpful when I mentioned giving him something like melatonin and made me feel quite awful for suggesting it ( I did point out you wouldn't expect an adult to suffer like this with such stress)
But Hank's so much for all your suggestions, I can't tell you how much it has made me feel better to know other people have experience similar xx

[TheEmojiFormerlyKnownAsPrince]

My DD is a bit like this. She is obsessed with getting enough sleep and goes into absolute meltdown if anything disturbs it. It's very wearing and worrying.

She has been referred to CAHMS, but meanwhile, I took het to a hypnotist which helped tremendously. It didn't eradicate everything, but it took all the heat and anxiety out of it. It was a wonderful woman, and l cannot emphasis again how much it helped.

We have a recording of the session to use again, and despite the fact that DD came out scowling and saying it hadn't done anything, she went to sleep easily sweetly and naturally and hour and a half later. For the first time in a month.

[VikingMama]

Another thought...
What happens if you play musical beds...can he sleep with you for a few nights to get over some of the initial fear. 5 nights of him in with you could help break some of the cycle.

[VikingMama]

This sounds a little similar.
Is he over tired in the day? Is he having nightmares?
My DD (ASD and anxiety) went through a similar phase, she was so over tired that any sleep she did have resulted in horrendous nightmares...and because she was so over tired in the day, she couldn't recall what was real and what was in her dreams, so was so scared to go to sleep in case the dreams were real.
She was eventually prescribed melatonin which, after a few nights, helped break the cycle...she still has vivid dreams, but she isn't so overtired that she thinks it's reality.

I would also address the anxiety issues in the day...driving in the car with him in the back is often a good way to talk without too much pressure.
He sounds like he is terrified of going to sleep but you need to know why so that you can help him.

Often, when they are in this 'stuck' phase, nothing (bribes, threats, praise, rewards) works at all. Ignoring is so hard, we've been there. it's relentless from them and if there are other kids in the house, three hours or more of ignoring doesn't help the house.

It does drag everyone down, a nice day is spoilt by bedtime, everyone is tired, everyone is snappy...believe me, when you get a solution or some help, it does get better.

[lucysnowe]

Hi OP so sorry this is happening with you and DS, you must be knackered :) it is good you got some respite last night, I would take any opportunity for that you can :)

I really recommend looking into ASD and sleep issues. My DD age 8 also has trouble getting to sleep (usually drops off around 11 pm or so) but without the OCD/anxiety problems, and she is being assessed for ASD. I bought the 'dread your bed' book recommended above and second the recommendation - it is a nice easy read and interactive - eg one page is a picture of a bedroom and the child has to circle what makes them anxious at bedtime.

I'm wondering if in the past he has got it in his mind he needs to sleep or he will be ill? or is there something in particular during the day he feels he needs to be 'awake' for (exams etc)? it might be worth turning it around telling him the opposite eg. 'I hear you're really good at staying awake, maybe you're nocturnal like Batman! I wonder how long you can stay awake tonight?' you can make it into a superhero special unique thing.

Social stories (an ASD thing) may also be useful - google 'social stories sleep' for some examples. Also physical things at bedtime to soothe anxiety - stuff he can bite/squeeze, maybe a weighted blanket, etc.

I do suggest giving your local CAMHS a call if you haven't already, they can be really helpful.

Finally if he really can't sleep and the anxiety is a result of that rather than the cause, you could try asking for melatonin tho most GPs don't prescribe it for children.

Good luck for tonight :)

[Mousybrown]

My mil took him last night as it felt like we all needed a break. He did it there too. Repeated the same phrases over and over and did the same saying he would t be able to sleep even though he hadn't actually tried. She said this morning you have to see it to believe it ( I think she thought we were being soft and if she had him and just told him to go to bed he would)
She said there is no way you can carry on like this so its good to see that someone else thinks it's out of the realms of normal

[SpecialAgentFreyPie]

How are things going?

[Floralnomad]

I wouldn't stay up with him ,I'd just leave him to it because you changing your routine is still making his bedtime a bit of an issue IYSWIM , at least it's the holidays so no problem really if he stays up all night - he will soon get fed up with that if everyone else goes to bed ,particularly if he then feels too tired the next day to join in with outings etc . If he comes up to bed late and starts creating just tell him firmly but calmly that he is to go downstairs / have a bath etc until he is ready to go to sleep with no fuss / without disturbing others .

[iknowimcoming]

Mousy I wonder if anyone said at the time that he probably fainted because of being overtired or similar? It might be that he has now got it in his head that him being tired will lead to him fainting again and/or worse, so he gets stressed about the possibility of not being able to sleep as the consequences are in his mind very bad. As I said try talking to him about what he thinks could happen as a result of him not going to sleep, reassure him those things are unlikely and or easily sorted. Try to avoid saying his ideas or perceived issues are silly or daft. Assure him that you can understand how the idea has stuck in a loop but help him to work it out. Reassure him that everyone feels anxious about things that other people don't get sometimes. Try getting him to do some research on anxiety and panic attacks on the web maybe too?

[Mousybrown]

Antiqueroadho it's not really that he is refusing to go to bed it's more that he is terrified to try ifyswim he has all the routine to go through first and then the panic that he won't sleep. There are no options for him cause he won't allow himself any. He can't even look at the pile of books let alone pick one to open.
I'm going to try igoroning bedtime completely and just staying up but I have a feeling he will go through this at 10, 12 or 3 I'm the morning?
The only thing I have just thought of is that a few months ago before this started again he fainted in the toilet before bed so maybe that might have something to do with it? But there was weeks between this and that incident?